'Inferior' Holden Daewoo Sourcing Policy A Failure, Says Ford Australia

[ford&holden]

Originally Posted by aball

Of course we can get statistics to tell us almost anything we like, but the Yaris, 2 and Jazz are all at the more expensive end of the light car market. The success of the Mazda also shows that people do want some styling and/or dynamic pizzaz from a light car.

Please don't get me ranting about Barina either. I know the current model is "only a stop-gap" until 2009/10, but that's long enough for it's pitiful crash results, daggy styling and horse-and-cart dynamics to do damage to Holden's already fragile reputation.

This is pretty much my opinion also, easy to spit the sales figures out but not the selling prices.
As volume is more important than profit it would appear to some.

[ford&holden]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

Well you know how it goes - can't play the ball, play the man. It must be galling for Ford - garnering all those best smallcar awards and still no-one wants to buy that little German car. Why doesn't he mention that terrific little car the Focus, which is going out the door backwards at a great rate of knots? Why would anyone spend more on a cheap version of the 3?

6 to 6.3% whoopie-do, crack the champagne - what does that represent, an extra 20 cars last month? If the Barina sold 4% less so far this year (which could simply mean one shipment of cars less came here), and the Fiesta only picked up 0.3%? I'd be sacking Ford's sales and marketing staff! and changing ad agencies.

Seeing as the old model Barina is about to be replaced you'd imagine numbers might be up and down. But they still sold 1300 last month, equal to about 3-4 months sales on the XC Corsa/Barina, when it wasn't being offloaded.

Tell you one thing, I'd rather have Holden's problems than Ford's. No-one wants their little cars, hardly anyone seems interested in the Mondeo which people on this and other sites thought was going to clean up, and not many people seem interested in the FG Falcon.

Superb Opel Corsa - puhleese! Might be true of the current one. But the old XC was nothing special, nothing special at all. Not in build, not in equipment, not in behaviour. Unless you sprang for the CDX. Then it was silly money. The City and CD equipped the way Holden had to sell them to get the price down were very ordinary little cars.

What terrible reputation does the current crop of GMDATs have? The trade certainly knows nothing - nothing - about it. Uninspiring drive? So are Toyotas but they sell. Being 'inspiring' isn't helping the Fiesta clean up.

Really, hardly anyone wants inspiring in the bottom feeders or the Yaris wouldn't move a single unit.

Really?
Who said the mondeo would clean up? 500 a month makes mondeo a class best seller?

Now you're making statements no one seems interested in the FG falcon!? ok.
I can't wait for the comparisons to start taking place, don't get me started on how a global GM RWD platform can't wallop a 'poor' locally produced unique platform.
Lets start comparing every detail of VE and FG shall we?

The truth is no one wants bottom feeder cars that are of only barina quality, heck even the getz is a better buy! and we all wonder why Holden and Ford can't be taken seriously when it comes to selling truly desirable small cars, at least Ford is trying.
Mazda 2 is a perfect example of how attractive styling will pull more money AND sales.
Do you think the Verve styling theme will sell better than the current bland looking fiesta while costing similar dollars?

Maybe you're right, the previous barina wasn't all that great, makes the current barina look even worse!

You know how toyota's sell, not the same way as Ford and Holden.

Truth is Holden wants market share maintained otherwise they would be equal second with Ford.

So tell me again how much profit Holden has made compared to Ford over the past 5 years?

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by ford&holden

So tell me again how much profit Holden has made compared to Ford over the past 5 years?

I don't know where to find that information. Perhaps you can enlighten me since it seems to be the whole basis of your argument. I'm not taking the piss or trying to rile you up. I really want to know. I would be surprised if it was worse than Ford though I have been wrong before...once. I can't remember when but I'm sure you book marked it

[ford&holden]

Originally Posted by mikmak

I don't know where to find that information. Perhaps you can enlighten me since it seems to be the whole basis of your argument. I'm not taking the piss or trying to rile you up. I really want to know. I would be surprised if it was worse than Ford though I have been wrong before...once. I can't remember when but I'm sure you book marked it

You're right about it being the basis of my argument as i thought profits were more important than volume alone.
Here are the links that provide some insight into profit figures. I have posted these links before.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/2822/for...-million-loss/

http://www.caradvice.com.au/3250/hol...-million-loss/

I only have figures for Holden from 02 onwards.
The difference between 02-06 is quite minimal for a company with higher market share
Ford also has higher investment costs due to falcon not having the pleasure VE enjoys with a global RWD platform or LHD exports.

This is why i find comments suggesting Ford is inefficient compared to Holden and Toyota curious.
The same argument could be applied to Mazda and Toyota, Mazda has 1/3 market share of Toyota yet matches the all mighty Toyota for AUS profits.
I'm sure Mazda isn't complaining.

[Ssom]

Wow, just looking at the 2007 NZ Registration statistics, Holden NZ must be ruing the day they let Holden Aus choose thier cars. 742 Fiestas sold v 381 Barinas, 580 Vivas (In fact Astras 449 + Viva is less than half of just Focus sales), 450 Epicas...

[AG3]

Originally Posted by menace

Simple build the Opel Corsa in Korea.

Euro car for Korean price.

Originally Posted by t-rex

I think that's likely to happen when Gamma-II arrives around 2011.

Can anyone confirm this? According to previous articles, news & rumors, the development of Gamma II cars will be headed by GMDAT, I guess we can also assume the Daewoo/Chevy version might be designed at GMDAT's Korean Design Center.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by ford&holden

You're right about it being the basis of my argument as i thought profits were more important than volume alone.
Here are the links that provide some insight into profit figures. I have posted these links before.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/2822/for...-million-loss/

http://www.caradvice.com.au/3250/hol...-million-loss/

I only have figures for Holden from 02 onwards.
The difference between 02-06 is quite minimal for a company with higher market share
Ford also has higher investment costs due to falcon not having the pleasure VE enjoys with a global RWD platform or LHD exports.

This is why i find comments suggesting Ford is inefficient compared to Holden and Toyota curious.
The same argument could be applied to Mazda and Toyota, Mazda has 1/3 market share of Toyota yet matches the all mighty Toyota for AUS profits.
I'm sure Mazda isn't complaining.

And who's made more profit over the long run :p not just one year.

[Joe88]

Originally Posted by rentakeyboard

Someone should introduce Bill Osborne to the word FESTIVA!

I think the last Gorman got wind of that a while ago...hence the fiesta...

The problem here is the long term, do you want these (strictly IMO) pieces of junk in Holdens history... Holden mussem: GTS 300, monaro, oh and in that dark corner is the viva...

I like my Holdens that is why I don't like these cars, they are not Holdens! I know the Euros aren't either, but they do a good job at fitting into a range that should be aspiring to create a long term notion of quality.

Ford is getting slagged off at for sales, but as word catches on that cars like the Fiesta are safe solid and a good drive sales will go up, and the companies future will be secured better and of higher regard! This can be seen even now as the fiesta has gone practically unchanged since introductions yet.. (in australia at least) it has just recently topped its previous sales record.

I'm not here on a GM site to deffend Ford, but just trying to bring up some home truths so we can have a better Holden for the future!

Sorry about the rantings btw.

[mikmak]

I dont consider them ranting Joe88, but there are some other rather loud skeletons in Holdens museum: Piazza, Camira, FWD Gemini, original Barina/Swift, Apollo, Sunbird. Whilst I agree with f&h on the surface, with regard to market share not being as important as profits, not to mention providing quality autos to preserve company reputation, there obviously needs to be a significant investment in future product.

Ford are taking the path already proven wrong with the Vectra, but still make up for it with the Focus and in the future, manufacturing them locally may well prove smart as far as supply is concerned (+ keeping my fingers crossed for the S-Max). The main concern (yes it's speculation) is the impending economic downturn where folks will tighten their belts and head for the cheaper option. This may not have been in the long cast when GM and Holden considered the Daewoo buy out, but it may still make them end up looking smarter than they really are. As has been mentioned before, the Opel Corsa is not a cost effective solution at this stage, and as has been mentioned before, not having the Daewoo products that we now have, would have left Holdens line up looking pretty skint. At the end of the day, most people don't drive like me and will never experience any percieved inequities of the Barina.

Whilst I detest the idea that Holden needs to sell these questionable modes of transport, I believe are a necessary, though painful stepping stone to future success, like getting a brazilian for your honeymoon. Whilst Ford has there Euro inspired Mondeo, Focus and Fiesta now, they may still be paying high manufacturing costs for them in the future, whereas the Gamma II et. al. will be coming soon to a continent near you, at a far lower cost.

I don't think Ford is being inefficient, just sailing a slightly different course.

Just to give you an idea of what I think of the GM Daewoos;
If I were shopping for a small car today, I would probably get an Astra as per the review in my sig. If I wanted something cheaper, I wouldn't shop at Ford or Holden. I'd buy a Mazda 3, and I've never owned any car that didn't have a lion on it.

^^^
Now that's a rant.

[I-Love-Pontiac]

I really don't care for Daewoo products. GM could sell off the division and I wouldn't give two craps.

[aball]

Do some of you release that that next all new fiesta is rumoured to be built and exported form Thailand? Free trade agreement anyone.

There is a big difference between making a quality, well designed product in Thailand, and making a cheap car designed ages ago in Korea (or Thailand). Honda's Jazz, Civic and Accord show that the Thais can slap a car together just as well as anyone else.

[ford&holden]

Originally Posted by aball

There is a big difference between making a quality, well designed product in Thailand, and making a cheap car designed ages ago in Korea (or Thailand). Honda's Jazz, Civic and Accord show that the Thais can slap a car together just as well as anyone else.

i agree with you.

My point was that the next all new fiesta which is the verve concept will be Euro developed/developed while being built and exported from Thailand to Australia.
Meaning we will get a good looking mini car at equal cheap prices to the next all new models from GM/Daewoo korea.
I know which i'd put my money on at this stage.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by paul8488

I'm one of the few Daewoo fans out there, but I don't think this Ford guy is that far off the mark. Clearly the current crop of Daewoo-sourced cars aren't what people want. The Epica and Captiva are better efforts than the previous generation models, but even they're not catching on all that well. The customer is never wrong, so while some of us try to defend the Epica and Captiva, even those are off the mark. I think Ford is a little overzealous using the Fiesta as an example as it is outsold by the Barina, but there is some truth in what they say.

A vehicle has to excel at SOMETHING... the Daewoo models don't seem to have any one strong point. Fuel economy... safety... value... performance... price... styling is a questionable one, but not many would argue that Daewoo has the most compelling designs, even if most aren't ugly either.

I agree that the new Daewoo Epica is not catching on and as other point out the rest of the line (except the Captiva) are based on old platforms that were not that great when new.

What happened to the idea that GM was going to have (one) platform for each market
GAMMA
DELTA
Epsilon

and take advantage of Daewoo's lower costs to produce these platforms for the Asian markets?

[Joe88]

I was driving our Thai built Ford 4X4 Courier (ranger) in the rain today, and i really hope they have learnt alot since then (2005), what a dynamically nightmare, fair call it's a ute, but still it is very sloppy.

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by ford&holden

i agree with you.

My point was that the next all new fiesta which is the verve concept will be Euro developed/developed while being built and exported from Thailand to Australia.
Meaning we will get a good looking mini car at equal cheap prices to the next all new models from GM/Daewoo korea.
I know which i'd put my money on at this stage.

That is certainly going to be a significant advantage. One thing I found odd with the Focus, is that Fiesta actually has a larger footwell. I think the Fiesta is quite a good bit of kit but suffers from being compared against traditional rivals from Holden. Unfortunately, John Citizen doesn't look past the price advantage so doesn't realise that the extra few gs would be well spent. That's a very important point you bought up f&h, with respect to there being a definitive time that the new Barina has to arrive on our shores ie. before the Thai built Fiesta. If people started actually driving the Fiesta (as opposed to ignoring it for economic reasons) in comparison to the Barina, GMDAT would be ****ed!