'Inferior' Holden Daewoo Sourcing Policy A Failure, Says Ford Australia

[igotzzoom]

Originally Posted by Rocket 88

Many GM products have been greatly improved, but when people buy Aveos because they're great cars is when GM will be best off.

Okay, so maybe the Aveo isn't fully competitive tit-for-tat with the Fit & Versa, but look at it this way: It offers a lot of goodies for the money, has a competitive warranty, and is cheap. That's all a lot of college kids and starving artists are looking for. In time, it will become more refined and more desirable. But it's filling a niche. I expect the next-gen model to be MUCH improved over the current one.

[YupYupYup]

MikMak: Thanks. A little bit higher than the U.S....A little closer to Canadian pricing.

Good arguements on both sides. I really think the purchase of Daewoo in general was a smart move, especially in the Asian, Eastern European, and South American markets...Next gen of produst will compete in the NA, Autralian and Western European markets...You must give them time. It is not something that happens overnight.

Around here I see plenty of Aveos. Warranty, price and features included all help sell the car. Many young people with it. The "imports" are too expensive once you start at features in them...Like always.

[BBDOS CV8]

Nothing to stop Holden selling the old Corsa at all - except last time it was here it didn't sell. Only when sold at runout prices did it move. The current one would probably have to retail at over $18,000 - that'd be like a $40,000 Pontiac in the 'States, no matter how good wouldn't sell.

The Corsa as sold by Holden was a 3-star NCAP car - it had no active head restraints and no side airbags. That was how they got it below $17K. The current Barina with side airbags is a 3-star NCAP car, as the test of the new Aveo noted. It had motors ranging from 1200-1700cc SOHC which were no great shakes for performance or economy. The CDX had the Astra's DOHC 1800 and all the fruit but cost more than $21K.

They stopped selling the XC when Opel told them they would no longer supply the car with certain combinations of equipment like aircon without active restraints and side airbags, which would have produced an even more expensive car, probably as dear as other small Euro cars.

Whatever people say, Vectras and Corsas just didn't sell, not even when Holden made Vectras here. Just too dear for a not special enough car. By any comparison the GMDATs are selling. And they don't have to be sold as loss-leaders.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

Nothing to stop Holden selling the old Corsa at all - except last time it was here it didn't sell. Only when sold at runout prices did it move. The current one would probably have to retail at over $18,000 - that'd be like a $40,000 Pontiac in the 'States, no matter how good wouldn't sell.

The Corsa as sold by Holden was a 3-star NCAP car - it had no active head restraints and no side airbags. That was how they got it below $17K. The current Barina with side airbags is a 3-star NCAP car, as the test of the new Aveo noted. It had motors ranging from 1200-1700cc SOHC which were no great shakes for performance or economy. The CDX had the Astra's DOHC 1800 and all the fruit but cost more than $21K.

They stopped selling the XC when Opel told them they would no longer supply the car with certain combinations of equipment like aircon without active restraints and side airbags, which would have produced an even more expensive car, probably as dear as other small Euro cars.

Whatever people say, Vectras and Corsas just didn't sell, not even when Holden made Vectras here. Just too dear for a not special enough car. By any comparison the GMDATs are selling. And they don't have to be sold as loss-leaders.

Good take on the situation. Do you think if Holden could sell a Corsa-based Barina at the same price point as the Koreans that it would be more successful?

[mikmak]

If equivalently equipped, I'm sure it would smash the 2.

[AG3]

Originally Posted by t-rex

I just hope Daewoo engineers, no doubt probably being helped by Europeans and Suzuki, pay close attention to the Honda Fit, Mazda2 and new Ford Fiesta. They can't simply match these cars, they'll have to beat them.

I think Suzuki will no longer be involved with GM Daewoo.
I'm looking forward to the Optra/Cobalt replacement (will there be a Holden version of this?), this I believe this will be the first compact GMDAT model to move to a global GM platform.

By the way it looks like the latest Daewoo Gentra sedan(Barina) now also comes with the new VVT 1.6 engine first seen in the Gentra X and new Aveo5.

[TKR]

Here we go again.

Look...GM bought Daewoo to get access to cheap manufacturing in Asia which is what they believe will set the platform for sucess for GM.

Sure they have not been able to replace every model yet but most on this site know that replacements are not very far off at all (and still ignore the fact obviously) and they will be based on brand new / updated GM architectures. Is GM serious about their Korean subsidary? The new midsize (Viva/Optra/Lacetti or whatever it will be called?) is the 1st vehicle to use the new Delta II architecture before any other GM model. Will the next Epica/Tosca be based on the Epsilon - of course it will be.

The last of the Opel sourced Barinas came without ABS or Alloys just to get the price down and even then they sold very slowly. As far as I am aware the GMDAT sourced Barina is reliable and sells quite well. Not as well as Holden would like I suppose but enough to stay competitive in the market and make money.

What would Holden have sold without the Captiva people? There was nothing in the bag so their market share has gone from zero to something not bad. Oh, and making money as well - dumb ass GM.

[mmciau]

Whatever evolves in the next round from GMDAT's sources, Holden must ensure that there is up to a 2 litre CRD optioned for Australia and new Zealand. (They have to start making inroads on Toyota's current stranglehold on "brain-washed" Toyota buyers.

These vehicles must be competitive with the recently introduced Hyundai i30 CRD which is making inroads on the benchmark Gold Diesel.

It must be more competitive than Ford's Diesels

Mike

[Ssom]

The more I look at it the more that this strategy works for Australia, but not NZ, which is why I generally disapprove of Holden NZ being more or less run out of Australia.

Pretty much all of Holdens 2007 sales here were split between Commodore and Captiva, with the Astra doing marginally OK. Whereas Ford has an even spread of sales between Focus, Mondeo, Falcon and Territory. Holden has no mid-sized wagon and hasn't since the JS Vectra, this is what stunted ZC Vectra sales here. The two most successful mid-sizers here the Mondeo and Mazda6, sell about 50% of their cars as wagons, while the Camry has the fleet/rental market locked up and won't let it slip.

The Viva did a pretty healthy trade selling to Avis and Budget in 2006, but I was told by the bloke at Avis that customer feedback on the Viva was so poor that they didn't renew the fleet with '07 cars and instead got Focuses, Corollas and Lancers and thus the Viva was one of the big sales losers of 2007.

While the Barina was outsold by the more expensive Fiesta, while the Micra, i-Car and Swift made sure that the Barina stayed put in the showroom.

Far as I can see the strategy has worked for the Australians, but has turned Holden NZ into the Commodore company, far as I'm concerned it's time for Holden NZ to go back to the way it was and bring in Vauxhalls and put a Holden badge on them like they did in the 1990's, if Holden Aus want to go back to 1991 then let them.

[BBDOS CV8]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Good take on the situation. Do you think if Holden could sell a Corsa-based Barina at the same price point as the Koreans that it would be more successful?

Of course they would. But if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle.

Sourcing from Europe is too expensive, and Holden is small fry for the Euros - getting deals from them for the small quantity of RHD cars we consume is blood from a stone.

Eventually I believe you will see a Kalos/Barina/Corsa/Aveo which will come out of Korea and factories in South America and Europe which will be the product of international design teams. These cars will punch all the buttons for features, spec, price. The Koreans have shown with the Viva and Epica they can produce 4-star NCAP cars without stability, which is the highest rating you can get. So when stability is added in the next gen, along with VVT and features like diesel they will start to move out of poverty-pack status.

I think Holden got a little off-put by the take-it-or-leave-it attitude of Opel - now they have their own small-car company in a cost-competitive country.

What they're producing now isn't wonderful - just give them a couple of years.

[DmitryKo]

I don't really think the previous generation Corsa is so much better than the current Kalos - both of them are not sport cars or luxury cars by any margin. But the current generation Corsa does look better and gets better ***CAP scores than both the Kalos and the updated Aveo.


One substantial benefit the Corsa offers, at least on the EU market, is the option of excellent MultiJet diesel engines from Fiat. The 1.3L engine has the torque of a 1.8L gasoline engine, but provides it right the low range, from 1000 to 2000 RPM. This can make your city driving experience much more enjoyable. But 1.2 and 1.4L gasoline engines on both the Corsa and the Kalos are uninspiring, though adequate.

Australian-spec Barina with a 1.6L probably drives a bit better;the new Barina 5-door will get the same VVT-equipped Ecotec as the US Aveo and current EU Astra, and that might make it a bit more inspiring. But again, you cannot seriously argue that Corsa is leaps forward the Kalos/Aveo. They are cheap entry-level cars, nothing more. Go for a Mini Cooper if you really want the best drive in this class; it costs twice as much though.

[menace]

Simple build the Opel Corsa in Korea.

Euro car for Korean price.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by menace

Simple build the Opel Corsa in Korea.

Euro car for Korean price.

I think that's likely to happen when Gamma-II arrives around 2011.

[ford&holden]

Originally Posted by teamkiwiracing

No arguements here that the BC is inferior than the TK Barina, though on the profit issue, they are making a lot more profit with the TK Barina compared to the euro sourced BC(?) Barina. It has been covered numourous times on this forum, so no need to start this debate again, each one sold makes more $$$ and they sell more TK Barina compared to the BC(?) Barina. The current Barina is a stop gap model, due for replacement late 09/10, so it should be a lot better.

Viva? yes its not doing as well as Holden had hoped, but once again its a stop gap model, with the replacement due late this year earl next, and indications from the spy shots suggest that it is going to be A LOT!!!!! better than the model that its replacing, a lot more upper class!

Epica, again stop gap model, though it is holding its own. Doing a lot better than the Vectra in term of sales, and is surprisingly doing better than the Mondeo (yes i know supply of diesel model is an issue with the Bondeo) even with its limited model lineup compared to the mondeo.

Captiva, again holding its own 950-1100 sales a month compared to Nil couple of years ago, i dont think holden will be complaining too much about the performance of the Captiva, 3rd best in its segment. And No i dont think that the captiva will out sell the Terrie either. And although Captiva does have the advantage of the Diesel, the Terr has the advantage of FWD which accounts for approx 50% of the sales, hence Toyotas decision to bring in the FWD Kulger/Highlander.

So ya have to say that the Korean pathway is slowly paying dividends to Holden, especially with the new GM-DAT developed products such as the Captiva. One can assume that once Holden get ahold of the other models later this year and next, Holden should hopefully see the rewards from taking the Korean pathway that it has choosen to take. Only time will tell. (ill bet a lazy dozen of NZ's finest beer that it will)

I come back to the same question i asked.

If Holden is making lots more money on korean sourced vehicles, higher market share than Ford, where are the bigger profits Holden is making compared to Ford?

Do some of you release that that next all new fiesta is rumoured to be built and exported form Thailand? Free trade agreement anyone.

Last month Ford sold 100 mondeos less than the stated target by Ford, i wonder if supply issues didn't exist would Ford sell 100 more, beating epica in the process?
No one ever said mondeo would clean the floor with it's direct competitiors, Ford just needs to hit it's targets not our targets.

The reality is Holdens branding is affected and their current product lineup does not mesh together particuarly well, regardless if the current models are stop gap models or not.
Funny how the new Holden CEO has commented that maybe it wasn't the best way to go. Afterall if they are only stop gap models, Holden could have easily waited for the much improved new models. They wanted to retain market share and this is how they tried.
Holden would be at a similar market share level to Ford currently if it wasn't for the Korean product range.
I didn't know market share was more important than profit, just ask Toyota.

[ford&holden]

Originally Posted by rentakeyboard

Someone should introduce Bill Osborne to the word FESTIVA!

Someone should inform you that it's currently 2008.