Holden To Follow Ford With A Locally Built Small Car? Alpha Torana Maybe?

[Aprime]

Originally Posted by Stéphane Dumas

maybe this smaller Alpha RWD platform could be also spin-off some others models for the export markets (new upcoming Chevy coming from example)

GeeSix

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Quality issue?

No offense, but up until recent times Australian cars weren't exactly pinnacles of quality. They were borderline junk, to be honest. I experienced firsthand Aussie tanks while in New Zealand in the mid-90s, and I was shocked by how appalling the quality was. Horrid cheap plasticky interiors, flimsy switchgear, rattly doors, poorly-painted, poorly-finished weld seams... just dreadful cars. I then realised Australians had the same low expectations that Americans did and apparently bought all those big Holdens solely because they were "fair dinkum" family cars. Nationalism obviously meant more to Australians than quality, if their cars were any reflection. Granted, they were stylish and roomy, and represented incredible value, but a VN or VQ Commodore was FAR from being anywhere remotely European or Asian in quality and was no better than anything faring from North America.

Obviously Holden's gotten their act together since then and started building some world-class cars with world-class quality. So what makes you think a Commodore assembled in Oshawa or Lansing would be any inferior to something welded together by a bunch of drunks in Adelaide?

I've driven GM's newer crop of vehicles, and I can state firsthand (and it's obvious after two years on this forum that I'm heavily pro-import) that GM's new products are finished to standards that can stand the scrutiny of any car buyer anywhere on Earth.

If Aussies were to shy away from an American or Canadian-built Commodore for patriotic reasons, or simply tradition, I could understand that. But it's outright stupid to suggest that Canadians and Americans can't build cars of world-class quality. The fact that Japanese transplants here export N/A-built products to global markets is testament to the ability of the North American worker.

Whilst I am willing to give cars of any origin a fair shot at the title, the experience I have had from American metal is limited to Jeep Cherokee sport (crap), sebring (crap), 300C (poor finish). Perhaps they weren't all from the same origin, but the quality reputation for the company is what suffers.

Unfortunately (and somewhat unfairly) NA product is tarred with the same brush.
Holdens quality and finish in the VN era were quite dodgy but mine were tough as nails. Lets not forget that VN is now 20 years old. 20! Modern Holdens have come a long way, but still certainly have a ways to go when it comes to materials. Nonetheless, Commodores are built in australia. They are built tough for Australia.

The representation of American quality that I have seen first hand, is not good enough. Simple as that.

....then add the patriotism.

You're pushing **** uphill with a toothpick if you think anyone in oz will agree with you rex.

[Kamshaaft]

Mik-mak was on the money in saying that no Aussie (short of Ford&Holden, maybe) is going to listen to your bullcrap on this subject. IMO what you're saying is a rediculous hypocrisy.

[t-rex]

This isn't a proposition for Wittgenstein.

Robert Ryan suggests that an Australian-designed, Australian-developed Commodore would be of inferior quality if it were assembled in the US or Canada and shipped to Australia, than if assembled in Adelaide.

I say that's a load of horse**** and none of you have so far made any remotely intelligent point that can prove Robert Ryan right.

To say that workers in Oshawa or Lansing can't assemble a quality product, based on some Aussie's assessment of a Chrysler Sebring, a totally different car from a totally different company, makes no sense whatsoever.

Nowhere did I remotely suggest that slapping a Holden lion on a N/A product, designed by North Americans, for North Americans, would be an appropriate product for Holden. Not even by the most tangent stretch of the imagination did my post suggest that GM rebadge a Chevy Impala as a Holden and sell it in Oz.

I pointed out that Australia itself doesn't exactly have a stellar history of producing cars of high quality. Nowhere did I say, or even allude to, the fact that Australians couldn't design a car for Australian conditions. And, reading my post once again, I made point that both Holden and GM N/A have made enormous strides in quality improvement. Of course that's conveniently overlooked.

Through my experience with several Australian products, from that rubbish skip Holden Commodore I had for three months in New Zealand, to that weak Falcon Wagon I rented in NZ in 2004, my experience with the quality (and how many times am I supposed to emphasise the fact that I'm talking about assembly quality and finish, not of engineering or design?) of Australian products led me to conclude that they're certainly no higher in quality than anything produced on this side of the Pacific. If "Australian conditions" means thrashy engines, cheap finish, and interior pieces falling off, then maybe Oz cars need to be kept in Oz. I'd like to think that's not the case.

Are Australian Camrys superior to American ones? I doubt it highly. Because they're the same car, the same design, the same basic engineering, simply built in different assembly plants. Is the Mitsubishi 380 superior to the N/A Galant? Again, I doubt not. The differences, if any, would be minute to the point that they weren't worth noting.

From that parallel, it stands to reason that a GM product would be of identical quality whether it's assembled in Adelaide or Arlington. What does the assembly location have to do with who designed it?

Again, Robert Ryan suggests that an Australian-designed, Australian-developed Commodore would be inferior if assembled in a North American plant than if assembled in Adelaide.

I'm waiting for an apples-to-apples, rational validation of that suggestion.

[mikmak]

I have no doubt what so ever that the new NA product will have massive quality leaps over previous efforts. What I was attempting to identify, is the widespread belief that Australians would object, based on the submissions of US product currently in the Australian market.
How would the average australian know the difference between a GM product and a Chrysler product. If you surveyed customers coming onto a Chrysler dealer in oz (we have one down the road), I would bet my left nut (and that's my favourite one too) that more than half of the customers wouldn't have a clue that Dodge and Jeep are also part of the same company.

Just like many people say goods that are made in China are crap, the same effect would happen with an imported GM product. American products are crap, based on examples currently in the market. Add a healthy dose of Xenophobia, mix in some anti-amercian sentiment (don't blame me, it's the vibe) and you will have the bogans and westies heading off to the Ford dealer...only to find out that you can't get a 250 crossflow anymore.

Originally Posted by T-rex

(1) "Tough"? Then why do Corollas and Mazda3s top the sales charts (at least for private buyers)?Every third car I saw in Oz was a friggin' Ford Laser.
(2) I visited the Outback while in Oz — saw nothing but Landcruisers, Hilux 4WDs, Patrols, etc.
(3) Australia is one of the most urbanised countries on Earth, even more so than many European countries such as France.

(1) Pretty much answered by your own point (3). Whilst the majority of australia is centralised around coastal areas, as you head out of town, much like (I would imagine) anywhere in NA, you get to some pretty wide open spaces. Those that don't venture out, stick with the small stuff.

(2) All 6.5 million square kilometres? I went only 2 hours out of Brisbane and run parallel up the coast this year and it was...hang on I made a thread about it
Out of nearly 8 million kilometres you make a pretty clinical judgement. A third are Lasers? Pullease.

(3) I've never been to France but I hear the wine is nice.

Originally Posted by T-rex

I think this "six-cylinder, six-seat, tough-as-nails" Aussie sedan is a very romanticised image held by Aussie car fans with the whole "tough" requirement having no substantial significance. It's a preference, not a requirement. And what's so "tough" about a Commodore anyway?

Tough as in things don't fall of when exposed to severe corrugations. Tough as in gearboxes that last 300K. You know what tough means, and all of my Commodores have suffered at my hands with nary a whimper.

Originally Posted by T-rex

You want tough? Try to tear up a Renault 4 or an old RWD Corolla, or, (gasp!) a B-body Chevy Impala. We're not talking about an HQ Kingswood. Excuuuuuse me for not writing a 5000-word soliloquy touting the toughness of those old Aussie tanks, which I can attest firsthand could tackle the rough South African Karoo with aplomb. But the VE's a different animal, designed for completely different driving conditions, conditions that are barely different from those anywhere else on Earth.

Sure there are tougher places on earth. There are nicer roads too. The Commodore is engineered with the diversity of Australian conditions in mind. Some people may not use them to the full extent, but I use alot of my Commodore's capability and I value them for that reason. I'm reasonably confident that a significant number of others respect the Commodore for similar reasons.

Originally Posted by T-rex

Somehow I can't see drivers in Oz's bush towns flocking to any modern car, Australian or not.

They do. They may not get the fancy pants Calais V (madness if they did) but still, Commodores are a staple of Australia and its many varied environs.

Originally Posted by T-rex

To suggest that North Americans can't design a V6 RWD sedan — 98% of which will see no use tougher than suburban streets — but only Australians can, is absurd.

What I said was

Originally Posted by mikmak

The representation of American quality that I have seen first hand, is not good enough. Simple as that.

Reading the above statement in concert with the preceding statement:

Originally Posted by mikmak

Unfortunately (and somewhat unfairly) NA product is tarred with the same brush.

I hope I've made my intentions clear. Don't take it as a personal attack or anything rex. I appreciate your opinions and consider your points of view, but there are few things I feel more strongly about (in the automotive industry) than the applicability and suitability of large tough RWD cars to traverse my wide brown land.

You may still feel it is romanticism, but I know it as reality and I'm not ashamed to be passionate about it as long as the product lives up to my expectations.

[mikmak]

Oh and the australian built 380 had thicker sheetmetal because the NA version was too flimsy.

[mikmak]

Of course not, but the perception would be otherwise.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by mikmak

Oh and the australian built 380 had thicker sheetmetal because the NA version was too flimsy.

Sorry mik, I had to rethink this one...

And in fact, it can better get across the point I'm trying to make.

Let's say the Aussie version of the 380/Galant was designed first. Heck let's just say Aussies designed it outright. The N/A and Oz versions would be identical except for minor bits here and there, right?

Again, I can completely understand a patriotic spirit of a Commy not being "fair dinkum" by being built in Canada. But if that's the case, than some should just say so. Trying to validate it with meaningless points and arguments about nonexistent quality issues only obfuscates things.

Americans are just as patriotic as Aussies (and in this maniacal fan-fest lately, even more so), and Pontiac fans don't seem to mind the G8 comes from Oz and not from Michigan. They want the car because it's a good car.

So I don't see why an Australian-designed car would be shunned by buyers there simply because it was assembled elsewhere.

If so, I'm actually a bit disheartened that Australians would be so outright nonsensical in making car buying decisions. Perhaps I have too much of a romanticised image of my wife's neighbors across the Tasman...

[RedVee8]

There's quality & there's quality.

Quality where the trim is nice and the plastic soft. The panel gaps are thin etc etc. Or
Quality where the thing lasts a long time and doesnt cost a fortune to fix.

The second "quality' is where Holdens have traditionally been. Now they are aiming for both. Probably a little way to go, but getting better.

Now, many many Holdens never see a dirt road. But GMH still need to provide the ability to cope into the Commodore because some will be treated to a rough life. You'd better believe that it would be big news if Commodores started snapping in half after 3 years country use. US GM cars were traditionally tough also, a fact that had Ford and Chev (GMH assembled) leading the Australian sales until the introduction of the Holden. A lot of Aussies automatically reject the idea of a fwd car as tough, so I'm not sure how tough an Impala (f'instance) is. I'm sure tough enough for 80% of Commodore use, what about the other 20% though?

I think Australians would more readily take to an imported mid size Holden than large. The temptation would be for the US to build the thing to "normal" specs, save a little weight, which would be fine for the US - I'm sure they know what they are doing there. But we have a greater expectation on the large Holden, irrational as that may be. We also have experience of O/S head offices foisting product on us to suit their purposes regardless of whether it is suitable or not. They know better, well sometimes they don't.

[jamesd12]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Americans are just as patriotic as Aussies (and in this maniacal fan-fest lately, even more so), and Pontiac fans don't seem to mind the G8 comes from Oz and not from Michigan. They want the car because it's a good car.

So I don't see why an Australian-designed car would be shunned by buyers there simply because it was assembled elsewhere.

The reason why Pontiac fans don't seem to mind that the G8 comes from Australia is because they haven't been able to by a product like that from Pontiac for decades. If Holden were making FWD, poor quailty slushmobiles in Australia (I'm not saying that you guys have, just using that as an example!) and Holden imported a RWD, reasonable quailty, good handling car from America, I'm sure everyone couldn't care less where it came from. Besides, for years I've been reading Americans moaning about how they don't get the "great cars that you guys do".

There is a very good reason why you'd annoy so many people in Australia by shifting production elsewhere. Holden have been making the same sort of car in Australia for 60 years. If Holden have been able to make the same sort of product here for so long, why would production have to be shifted?

Besides, the whole stigma of Americans making poor quailty rubbish is a rather strong one. All we really get over here is Chrysler brand products, and I tell you, they don't exactly help the image. I know you may have experienced some of the rougher examples of Australian cars over here, but who's to say that the average American would even know that cars were made in Australia in the first place?

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by T-rex

Let's say the Aussie version of the 380/Galant was designed first. Heck let's just say Aussies designed it outright. The N/A and Oz versions would be identical except for minor bits here and there, right?

Originally Posted by mikmak

Fleet sales of Pontiac are what hurt the GP and G6 in the long run. I don't think it had so much to do with Pontiac turning their back on performance and more to do with chasing what their customers were asking for. Once they got a little bit of fleet action, fleets obviously became the driving force in future product direction.

I think this ^^^ may have something to do with it and RedVee8 touched on it as well. It's ours. We don't want someone else stuffing around with it. When something has been evolving for so long, in accordance with a unique formula, and meets (I'm going to be selfish here) my needs so aptly, I would be very hesitant to let someone else play with it.

Whilst I get where you are coming from, I would struggle to maintain any significant amount of confidence that the Commodore would keep evolving the way I believe it should. If NA started building 100K plus units and sold 30K in Oz vs. 70k in NA, which customers do you think they (GMNA) would listen too?

What you are saying is a sound business decision. I just can't see any justification for it other than dollars. When GM starts thinking like that, in regard to what is essentially a unique class of car, IMO it's the beginning of the end.

[mikmak]

p.s. I like that neither of us can handle a single line response.

[Baz]

T-rex, They wouldn't buy it because its no longer Australias own so to speak. It's not the car, its what it represents and the history it has

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by Baz

T-rex, They wouldn't buy it because its no longer Australias own so to speak. It's not the car, its what it represents and the history it has

THANK YOU BAZ!

All I was trying to get in the first place was an idea of just HOW IMPORTANT it is to Aussies that their prized "big sixes" (do you really call them that? or is that a foreign perception?) be produced locally. That's something was impossible to gauge from my side of the Pacific.

Now what about a future Torana? What if GM develop a joint Holden/Pontiac product that would be sold under both brands? If Holden are currently at production capacity, how would a Torana fit in? Would Holden rather lose its lucrative exports to the Middle East to make room for Torana, or would Aussies take to a N/A-built Torana?

Would it have to remain in Aussie for the same reason the big Holdens are? Or would an imported Torana be acceptable? I have no idea what sort of "status" the Torana has with Holden fans, but I've always gathered it was pretty close to that of the big Holdens of the era. Or has it been gone too long, unlike the big Holden, for anyone to care anymore if it's Aussie- or Michigan-built?

[Calais6666]

It's obvious from the statements, that Holden is likely to do the smaller vehicle. Therefore, it makes sense that it is going to be the Alpha. It's the only way a business case can add up. Produce a new product (that will use some components from an existing model - Commodore, and utilise exisiting RWD expertise), address a previously stated desire to have a small RWD and share it between brands to maximise units (Holden / Pontiac). The only problem is production space. I keep thinking Tonsley Park?