Holden To Follow Ford With A Locally Built Small Car? Alpha Torana Maybe?

[Rick_VT]

I wonder if Holden has also thought about downsizing the Commodore back to maybe VT size, even VT is big enough for families, with less weight and more efficient V6 petrol and diesel engines it would be a pretty economical.

As for the 2nd model would be very interesting what they will build, you would think it would nedd to have export potential to justify building here so maybe the Alpha car would be it

[t-rex]

So should an Alpha Torana be sized more like a 3 series BMW? or more like a 1 series?

[crooner214]

Originally Posted by t-rex

So should an Alpha Torana be sized more like a 3 series BMW? or more like a 1 series?

How about right in the middle? It seemed to work pretty well for the first gen CTS, and would allow for the G6 to remain about the same size when it moves over (and hopefully, gets a real name).

[eb110americana]

Originally Posted by FierySolstice

Uhh.. no.. Chevy has enough cars in its stable. This should be exported as the next G6. This is exactly what Pontiac needs right now to be different from Chevy, Saturn and Buick. It would be a great addition to the brand.

Originally Posted by jaywestfall

Exactly, it will also go a long way to finally vetting out exactly what the commitment of GM is concerning the long term existence of the Pontiac nameplate.

Bring it on!

I'll cast another vote in favor of a Pontiac G6 replacement, Cadillac BTS, and no Chevy for the US on Alpha. For the middle east, however, I think a Chevrolet variant would be perfect.

Let Holden do the engineering on the chassis, and GM US should pay for most of that along with offering the best of our engineers to help keep weight around 3500 Lbs.

Since Cadillac will be selling a version as the BTS, let them work up the interior similar to the CTS, and then modify it for a Pontiac/Holden version.

Have Pontiac style the exterior with input from Holden, and use conservative bumper caps on Australian models (non-HSV) instead of the other way around.

Build it in North America somewhere, and export them so that we don't wind up with a stripped Pontiac for $25-$30K that is production-capped at 40K units per year for the US. We'll ship them to you and they'll all be cheaper. Keep Commodore production in Australia, everyone's happy.

Originally Posted by t-rex

So should an Alpha Torana be sized more like a 3 series BMW? or more like a 1 series?

I say 3 Series sized or even a few inches longer. It's a lot smaller than many people realize. When gas gets over $6/gallon here after 2010, then an even smaller model can fill out the RWD lineup off of Kappa.

Length:

Pontiac G8: 196.1"
BMW 5: 191.1"
BMW 3: 178.2"
BMW 1: 171.7"
Audi A3: 168.7" (5 door Wagon)

Originally Posted by crooner214

How about right in the middle? It seemed to work pretty well for the first gen CTS, and would allow for the G6 to remain about the same size when it moves over (and hopefully, gets a real name).

The first gen CTS was 190.1" long, which at the time it came out in 2003, was bigger than the BMW 5 Series, which was 188.0". In 2004 the 5 grew to 191.1," but still only an inch longer than the CTS--which grew to 191.6" in 2008 to again outsize the 5. A G6 is 189.1" long. Somewhere between a 1 and 3 Series would be 175", but I think a size around 180-185" would be best for Alpha.

[eb110americana]

I just checked, and the Holden Torana Concept was 183.2" long, so that puts it right in the middle of the numbers I suggested.

[mmciau]

Originally Posted by Rick_VT

I wonder if Holden has also thought about downsizing the Commodore back to maybe VT size, even VT is big enough for families, with less weight and more efficient V6 petrol and diesel engines it would be a pretty economical.

As for the 2nd model would be very interesting what they will build, you would think it would nedd to have export potential to justify building here so maybe the Alpha car would be it

I don't think they can "easily" shed the weight back to VT.

The "safety lobby" has put so many demands on manufacturers now that the additional safety features are the big items causing weight growth.

Holden could have a Commodore with a 4 cylinder dual fuel that would be a very good item for city/urban use. They have got really smart lately with LPG technology and it is affordable with the rebates!

Mike

[paul8488]

You bring up some interesting points eb110... to really simply things there could be just two interiors: one for the Cadillac, and one for Holden that would also be shared with Pontiac in North America and Chevrolet in the Middle East. The G8 interior works just fine... if the alpha-based midsizer had something along those lines with no craziness like the Vibe's interior (I like the Vibne's interior, but it would never fly for a bunch of different brands) it would suit all the different brands just fine. Heck, Holden could maybe even have an upscale version using the Caddy interior (since we all know that Caddy never really is going to head to Australia).

Oh it gets me excited thinking about this! How smart would it be for GM to continue to attack the midsize sedan market, but with epsilon for FWD and alpha for RWD?!?

[mikmak]

If it [a second model] does eventuate, you would have to think that it WOULD be RWD. GM has really started to leverage its global resources and producing additional FWD product in the region seems counterproductive. GMDAT is having a merry old time at the moment and China is ramping up too. We only build RWD because it is what Holden has stuck with for 60 years.

Of course there is the local manufacturing climate to consider, and no doubt, the Auto manufacturing industry review (due in july) will have a big influence on any further decisions. Much as it may dissapoint our NA friends, there is a benefit to an Alpha Pontiac being made in oz. Limitation of availability is a bonus when trying to establish something as a niche brand. Fleet sales of Pontiac are what hurt the GP and G6 in the long run. I don't think it had so much to do with Pontiac turning their back on performance and more to do with chasing what their customers were asking for. Once they got a little bit of fleet action, fleets obviously became the driving force in future product direction.

If GM as a whole considers the future of Pontiac, it is in putting out more exclusive product. Limiting numbers on a sound product is a sure fire way to develop desirability.

As some have stated, Chevy doesn't need another vehicle. By not having a Alpha product, people can't just jump over to the next rebadge to get essentially the same thing.

Pontiac can't have it both ways. either they run in parallel to chevy as an unsustainable fleet option, or they become a niche product company, providing accessible fun-to-drive products which cater for the minority of consumers who actually give a **** about steering feedback, ride, handling and three pedals.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by eb110americana

Build it in North America somewhere, and export them so that we don't wind up with a stripped Pontiac for $25-$30K that is production-capped at 40K units per year for the US. We'll ship them to you and they'll all be cheaper. Keep Commodore production in Australia, everyone's happy.

I say 3 Series sized or even a few inches longer. It's a lot smaller than many people realize. When gas gets over $6/gallon here after 2010, then an even smaller model can fill out the RWD lineup off of Kappa.

We're thinking on the same page!

In putting together my "GM2010" project, I've made all attempts to make every possible GM product global, except for regional specialties like an Asia-only compact Chevy MPV/AUV and of course the bigger SUV's and such for North America.

For Pontiac, I was contemplating two small RWD sedans, the larger being Epsilon-sized, effectively the Torana concept, and a smaller Delta-sized model slotting beneath to occupy the segment where the G5 and Vibe now sit, giving Pontiac a S-M-L (and XL if the Statesman were brought here as a Bonneville, which I think would be nice) sedan lineup.

The Alphas would be built in North America, and Holden would provide larger Zetas for ASEAN and Middle Eastern markets, in addition to providing the GTO (Holden 60) and possibly Bonneville (Statesman) and Chevy El Camino (Ute) to North America. Holden would import from North America the Torana, and a pair of Zeta-based products, a Territory-fighting crossover (Himalaya), and a mid-gate Avalanche-esque SUT derivative (Crewman), which would be GMC products here. The latter would effectively replace the Avalanche, as Chevy would be getting a Lambda-based midgate SUT.

The sub-Torana Holdens, the Barina and Astra, would remain Opel designs, but would be sourced from low-cost India, and the only GMDAT-based Holden would be the Captiva, and possibly the Epica, if that model doesn't get in the way of the Torana.

The Astra-sized Alpha Pontiac could theoretically fit in, being sort of a RWD parallel model to the Astra, with the range progressing upwards from there.

I'm also working on a possible Alpha-based sporty small pickup for GMC, which would replace the Canyon, leaving Colorado to soldier on as GM's BOF smaller pickup. This Alpha pickup is effectively just the Brazilian Montana scaled up to more midsize proportions. I'm wondering if Aussies would go for sort of a "Junior Ute" model...

***

But I'm wondering... does Holden have the capacity for a second model? I've been under the impression for a while now that Holden is currently operating at close to its production capacity. Or, how would Aussies react if the big Zetas were sourced from North America, while Australia became the global Alpha production base? Any Aussies “in the know” care to comment?

[Kennyboy]

My dream is of a baby Cadillac riding on the "Alpha" platform that's powered by a turbo diesel 4 cylinder engine that comes under 25,000.

[BBDOS CV8]

Holden could make the existing car lighter, the only question is how light do you want to spend? Holden has the lightweight panel tech and alloy suspension experience to build the stuff.

They have the plastic casting tech, used on the current Maloo. However, people think plastic's cheap. It isn't for quality that doesn't sag or crack or age. They can go to the higher tech alloys in the structure. But it's the dollars.

I think short term a diesel is the answer. People don't want smaller cars. They want cheaper to run cars.

[Robert Ryan]

Holden would import from North America the Torana, and a pair of Zeta-based products, a Territory-fighting crossover (Himalaya), and a mid-gate Avalanche-esque SUT derivative (Crewman), which would be GMC products here. The latter would effectively replace the Avalanche, as Chevy would be getting a Lambda-based midgate SUT.

Again the "quality" issue of US sourced products raises it's head. I think the smaller cars should come out of Europe or to a lesser extent Asia.

[1931Chevy]

Let Holden do the engineering on the chassis, and GM US should pay for most of that along with offering the best of our engineers to help keep weight around 3500 Lbs.

GM US always is paying from everything done here to China

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Again the "quality" issue of US sourced products raises it's head. I think the smaller cars should come out of Europe or to a lesser extent Asia.

Quality issue?

No offense, but up until recent times Australian cars weren't exactly pinnacles of quality. They were borderline junk, to be honest. I experienced firsthand Aussie tanks while in New Zealand in the mid-90s, and I was shocked by how appalling the quality was. Horrid cheap plasticky interiors, flimsy switchgear, rattly doors, poorly-painted, poorly-finished weld seams... just dreadful cars. I then realised Australians had the same low expectations that Americans did and apparently bought all those big Holdens solely because they were "fair dinkum" family cars. Nationalism obviously meant more to Australians than quality, if their cars were any reflection. Granted, they were stylish and roomy, and represented incredible value, but a VN or VQ Commodore was FAR from being anywhere remotely European or Asian in quality and was no better than anything faring from North America.

Obviously Holden's gotten their act together since then and started building some world-class cars with world-class quality. So what makes you think a Commodore assembled in Oshawa or Lansing would be any inferior to something welded together by a bunch of drunks in Adelaide?

I've driven GM's newer crop of vehicles, and I can state firsthand (and it's obvious after two years on this forum that I'm heavily pro-import) that GM's new products are finished to standards that can stand the scrutiny of any car buyer anywhere on Earth.

If Aussies were to shy away from an American or Canadian-built Commodore for patriotic reasons, or simply tradition, I could understand that. But it's outright stupid to suggest that Canadians and Americans can't build cars of world-class quality. The fact that Japanese transplants here export N/A-built products to global markets is testament to the ability of the North American worker.

[Baz]

Ugh, Your an idiot mate. Maybe because Holden has been Building the commodore for a long time and its an Aussie car designed for Aussies. Take it over and build it in the US and generally we will get a sedan with a V8 and a fast straightline speed. Believe it or not Holden employs people (shock horror) to build their cars and by taking away production of the Commodore, not only will you lose alot of jobs, you'll also kill a brand because the Aussie market is still its biggest and also its birth place. No one will buy a commodore as a protest against being built by some fat yanks (refer to your attack on Aussies)