GM Refuses To Rule Out Chevrolet Joining Cadillac, Hummer & Saab Down Under

[nota]

Originally Posted by YupYupYup

Just because you do not want something, doesn't mean it is not going to happen.

Who knows, in the near future we might not see Holden as a brand, instead replaced by Chevy as a global brand to match up with Asian strategy. The way the world is, everything is on the table. Don't rule anything out. And since Holden has been losing market share to Toyota...

Chevrolet has been losing market share to Toyota. When was the last time Chevrolet turned a profit?

In fact when was the last time GMNA saw black ink? Seeing that the US arm of GM has been dragging the entire group down through being a proven money loser for year after dismal year it seems logical to dump not just Hummer but get rid of all of those failed GMNA loser brands. For GM to improve its overall chances of survival it should stick with its winning brands while imposing a strict and ruthless phase out of its non performing losers, such as:

Chevrolet
Pontiac
Buick
Cadillac
GMC

To paraphrase: Just because you do not want something, doesn't mean it should not happen.

[BBDOS CV8]

Chev does not make anything in North America RHD. And the Aveo is too expensive to import from so far, when Korea is so close and we can get the same car there.

I could see Chev selling a few fullsize trucks. Of course the Camaro, which is engineered ambidextrous by Holden might sell a thousand a year. The Corvette GM shows no inclination to make RHD, but it wouldn't hurt to have as a loss-leader halo selling a dozen cars a year against Porsches and the like.

The Daewoos are not brilliant cars but there is no doubt sales rose the moment they slapped the Lion/Globe on them. Sticking the bowtie on non-US-origin cars will simply 'scare the horses' and cruel the market for the higher up stuff which might turn a dollar like fullsize trucks or muscle cars, If these cars are failing to stem the import tide in the US badging them with a bowtie isn't going to help here.

Chevvy is not a global brand. It's riding on the coat-tails of low-end GMDATs (and doing enormous damage to the potential for higher end cars) and is irrelevant anywhere else on the planet, except in the Middle East where it's riding on Holden's coattails. Fiat and VW make sure their supercar brands are kept at arms' length to bread and butter makes - so should GM.

I agree with MonaroSS it is likely the only 'real' Holdens in future will be premium product and mostly exported.

As far as killing Holden in Australia in favour of Chev, at this rate Chev is far more likely to go tits-up I would say. If GM went bankrupt there's a better than good chance Holden could go semi-independent with foreign ownership as it still has a solid business.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by Rick_VT

And the point of selling Chev branded cars here is what??

For the same reason Chevrolet and Opel/Vauxhall are both sold in Europe.

For the same reason Chevrolet and Opel are both sold in South Africa.

Chevrolet represent the "budget" end of the spectrum, whilst Opel/Vauxhall occupy a slightly higher position.

The current crop of Holden-badged Daewoos is proof positive that "budget" cars aren't befitting the Holden name. While there'd be some cannibalism if both the Kalos/Aveo and Opel Corsa were both offered in the same market, their combined sales would likely be much higher than if only one or the other were offered.

Chevrolet could not only offer the price-sensitive products in the light car and compact segments, but it could market products, such as a compact MPV, that perhaps wouldn't be best suited as Holdens. Not to mention possible "niche" models, such as the Chevy Nomad or even the HHR, that would be just as unsuitable Holdens as they would be unsuitable Opels. Then there's the size issue. Epicas might sell better if they weren't sitting next to Commodores, and that situation will be even more confusing once the "Alpha" Torana arrives in a few years. It's quite possible the Vectra failed simply because of how it was positioned in the Holden lineup. Having two different brands opens the possibility (though doesn't guarantee it) of individual models having greater market success.

There's also the issue of having too many models offered under a single brand. If GM can successfully sell 25 different products in one market, it becomes a problem when all 25 are sold under the same brand. A dozen Chevvies and a dozen Holdens makes much more sense. In other words if both the Aveo and Corsa/Barina have sales potential, it's silly to limit the market to only one offering. Let Chevy go after the Getz/Yaris and be the volume seller, with a Corsa-based Barina being a more sophisticated alternative, competing with the likes of the Polo. Its sales would be lower, but a higher price point would allow for greater profit potential. Repeat this scenario one size up with the Lacetti/Astra. With the light car and compact segments growing rapidly, there exists the possibility that a single small car will not appeal to all small car customers. Some will buy solely on price, while others will expect higher levels of equipment, handling, safety and sophistication. I believe this is the entire raison d'etre of GM offering parallel Chevrolet and Opel lines in more sophisticated markets.

This isn't 1975, where HJ-Torana-Falcon-Valiant comprised 85% of the market. The Aussie market is as diversified as most other global markets, with all sorts of niches and segments that GM could successfully exploit, but not necessarily exploit successfully with solely the Holden moniker.

Holden shouldn't be Australia's Chevrolet, it should be Australia's Opel.

n.b. I understand your argument, and a few years probably would have felt the same. But I'm taking a platform assuming that fuel prices will keep rising and more buyers shift to smaller cars, and I believe many buyers (myself included) won't be ready to sacrifice big-car features just because they're trading down to a smaller package. If this indeed happens, GM might be at an advantage offering small cars in two levels of sophistication, with cheaper Chevvies and more expensive Holdens. I believe this would work better than cheap Holdens and trying to introduce Opel as the more upscale small car brand.

[Robert Ryan]

I could see Chev selling a few fullsize trucks. Of course the Camaro, which is engineered ambidextrous by Holden might sell a thousand a year.

The tiny number of US Pickups that are imported here, tend to be Fords. As I noted earlier Chevrolet does not really have a medium or heavy truck of it's own design that can exported globally. Camaro probably the most appealing of the whole GMNA lineup, is not going to sell at even those numbers here.Hundreds maybe.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by t-rex

For the same reason Chevrolet and Opel/Vauxhall are both sold in Europe.

For the same reason Chevrolet and Opel are both sold in South Africa.

Chevrolet represent the "budget" end of the spectrum, whilst Opel/Vauxhall occupy a slightly higher position.

The current crop of Holden-badged Daewoos is proof positive that "budget" cars aren't befitting the Holden name. While there'd be some cannibalism if both the Kalos/Aveo and Opel Corsa were both offered in the same market, their combined sales would likely be much higher than if only one or the other were offered.

Chevrolet could not only offer the price-sensitive products in the light car and compact segments, but it could market products, such as a compact MPV, that perhaps wouldn't be best suited as Holdens. Not to mention possible "niche" models, such as the Chevy Nomad or even the HHR, that would be just as unsuitable Holdens as they would be unsuitable Opels. Then there's the size issue. Epicas might sell better if they weren't sitting next to Commodores, and that situation will be even more confusing once the "Alpha" Torana arrives in a few years. It's quite possible the Vectra failed simply because of how it was positioned in the Holden lineup. Having two different brands opens the possibility (though doesn't guarantee it) of individual models having greater market success.

There's also the issue of having too many models offered under a single brand. If GM can successfully sell 25 different products in one market, it becomes a problem when all 25 are sold under the same brand. A dozen Chevvies and a dozen Holdens makes much more sense. In other words if both the Aveo and Corsa/Barina have sales potential, it's silly to limit the market to only one offering. Let Chevy go after the Getz/Yaris and be the volume seller, with a Corsa-based Barina being a more sophisticated alternative, competing with the likes of the Polo. Its sales would be lower, but a higher price point would allow for greater profit potential. Repeat this scenario one size up with the Lacetti/Astra. With the light car and compact segments growing rapidly, there exists the possibility that a single small car will not appeal to all small car customers. Some will buy solely on price, while others will expect higher levels of equipment, handling, safety and sophistication. I believe this is the entire raison d'etre of GM offering parallel Chevrolet and Opel lines in more sophisticated markets.

This isn't 1975, where HJ-Torana-Falcon-Valiant comprised 85% of the market. The Aussie market is as diversified as most other global markets, with all sorts of niches and segments that GM could successfully exploit, but not necessarily exploit successfully with solely the Holden moniker.

Holden shouldn't be Australia's Chevrolet, it should be Australia's Opel.

n.b. I understand your argument, and a few years probably would have felt the same. But I'm taking a platform assuming that fuel prices will keep rising and more buyers shift to smaller cars, and I believe many buyers (myself included) won't be ready to sacrifice big-car features just because they're trading down to a smaller package. If this indeed happens, GM might be at an advantage offering small cars in two levels of sophistication, with cheaper Chevvies and more expensive Holdens. I believe this would work better than cheap Holdens and trying to introduce Opel as the more upscale small car brand.

Yes, T-Rex who was raised antipodal and who has now seen the ailing GM mothership 'gets it'.

If you look at what cable TV and Internet have done in the last decade and a half then you must realise that much of GM and Toyota's (and all the big players) future advertising dollars have to be value added and broadly applicable. When a YouTube video becomes a PR hit, people from all over the world will see it. If it's for a Chevy Aveo then every country in the world needs a Chevy Aveo model to capitalise on that worldwide Internet audience success. Same goes for product placement in movies and on gaming consoles etc. The days of big local area specific TV promotions is slipping away as the dollars spent don't get the bang for the buck any more. Advertising and brand management will become more and more global.

You need the same car to have the same name in every market. I'm not saying that Holden as a local name will go away any time soon, but all it's model names will soon become the exact same name in all markets. And that may mean that the Holden Monaro is also the Vauxhall and Opel Monaro in Europe and the Pontiac Monaro in the US. But Holden Commodore may become Holden Century in future to match it's perhaps then full sized RWD name in China and the US under Buick and in Europe under Opel/Vauxhall. There will have to be give and take. Each market will lose some fond names and each market will have some of their names go international.

There is more room at the top end to have area specific names like Holden Century and Buick Century (so long as the model name is the same) but at the cheap mass-market end where Chevy will be GM's worldwide brand you have to make every Ad and PR dollar count with such small margin cars. And with the soon to be world players India and China those cars will get VERY cheap at the low end. Too cheap for Holden's brand image.

Chevy has been chosen for everywhere other than the US to be the low content player. You can’t have people think that such a Chevy is a quality brand AND a cheap brand. Some people don't mind cheap and shop primarily on price only, they will be targeted by Chevy. Others want value for money and can be sold on the worth of higher quality. What you don't want to be doing is confusing the consumers by having dirt cheap Holden’s that under perform on quality so they can out perform on price.

Because then people's experience and perceptions of them will transfer up the brand range in the wrong way. Either GM throws in the towel now or it will have to play in the dirt-cheap market that China and India will create. And I bet Toyota will spin off a cheap brand to compete there too, for the same reasons of not tarnishing their higher value brands.

Unfortunately for our American friends the US Chevy brand will move down market not just in size and fuel consumption over the next ten years but also in price and perceived quality. This will give more room for Buick and Pontiac to offer affordable quality and performance.

[from oz]

If Chevy were to become Australia's 'cheap' GM brand what happens when the Camaro is released? It's not worth it in the long run.

Holden doesn't need a new brand to lob these cheap Daewoos... it needs better Daewoos that are competitive and are fit for the Holden brand.

You'd think GM and the members of this board would recognise the fact that GM USA is drowning in brands. Why pull another market down?

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by from oz

If Chevy were to become Australia's 'cheap' GM brand what happens when the Camaro is released? It's not worth it in the long run.

Holden doesn't need a new brand to lob these cheap Daewoo’s... it needs better Daewoo’s that are competitive and are fit for the Holden brand.

You'd think GM and the members of this board would recognise the fact that GM USA is drowning in brands. Why pull another market down?

Holden needs better small cars and they can get them from Opel. But GM also needs to compete in what will be a growing market at the lower end and they need 'adequate' (but not better at the sacrifice of price) Daewoo’s and GM-China cars to achieve that.

As to where Corvette and Camaro sit regarding a cheap entry level Chevy, well Chevy in the US is and has always been GM's cheap brand yet the likes of Corvette and Camaro have successfully floated over the top of entry level Chevy's sprinkling a little sporting kudos that helps the cheap Chevy's compete better in image against the other cheap competition products.

Same as why the entry level Plymouth Brand had the 'Cuda, Duster and Prowler etc

What we must not forget here is that Holden has only just become a mature premium Brand in the Aussie market (mainly on the back of the VT) and is still at risk of backsliding if Commodore sales become less of a percentage and cheap Daewoo's become more of a percentage of sales. I want to save Holden and to do that it must be separated out upmarket somewhat from the smaller cheaper battleground where the real fight for dominance in the automotive world is about to be fought. And Chevy will be, and as a global brand should be best suited to be, GM's champion in that battle....

Will the new Chinese and Indian players trounce the rest of the world or will the traditional Asian and Western automakers prevail or succumb? 20 years from now we will know the answer. Make no mistake, automotive war clouds are on the horizon. There will be casualties.....

[from oz]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Holden needs better small cars and they can get them from Opel. But GM also needs to compete in what will be a growing market at the lower end and they need 'adequate' (but not better at the sacrifice of price) Daewoo’s and GM-China cars to achieve that.

As to where Corvette and Camaro sit regarding a cheap entry level Chevy, well Chevy in the US is and has always been GM's cheap brand yet the likes of Corvette and Camaro have successfully floated over the top of entry level Chevy's sprinkling a little sporting kudos that helps the cheap Chevy's compete better in image against the other cheap competition products.

Same as why the entry level Plymouth Brand had the 'Cuda, Duster and Prowler etc

What we must not forget here is that Holden has only just become a mature premium Brand in the Aussie market (mainly on the back of the VT) and is still at risk of backsliding if Commodore sales become less of a percentage and cheap Daewoo's become more of a percentage of sales. I want to save Holden and to do that it must be separated out upmarket somewhat from the smaller cheaper battleground where the real fight for dominance in the automotive world is about to be fought. And Chevy will be, and as a global brand should be best suited to be, GM's champion in that battle....

Will the new Chinese and Indian players trounce the rest of the world or will the traditional Asian and Western automakers prevail or succumb? 20 years from now we will know the answer. Make no mistake, automotive war clouds are on the horizon. There will be casualties.....

I disagree. The reality is that Australia has not embraced the premium small car market. We like them cheap. I don't believe that Opel can supply Holden with Corsas at a price that would be accepted by the market. If that is not possible than the experiment will fail and Holden is left with a big void and a tarnished brand image as it is not accomodating the small car market during high petrol prices. Look at Peugeot, they are not selling the new 207 because it would be too expensive as a base model.

What needs to happen is cooperation between GM Daewoo and Opel for both quality products at a good price. Then everyone is a winner. But Chevy as a cheap brand has no place in Australia.

[RedVee8]

The Opels for Holden would likely be built in S Korea and Thailand.

How about GMC as a truck brand? There are no more ties with Isuzu i think that GMC should become global in the commercial & heavy truck areas. Even in Australia.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by from oz

If Chevy were to become Australia's 'cheap' GM brand what happens when the Camaro is released? It's not worth it in the long run.

Holden doesn't need a new brand to lob these cheap Daewoos... it needs better Daewoos that are competitive and are fit for the Holden brand.

You'd think GM and the members of this board would recognise the fact that GM USA is drowning in brands. Why pull another market down?

I think it's important that we stop thinking of Chevrolet (globally) as a "cheap" brand and think of it as GM's "Value" brand.

The expansive rise expensive technology comes at a price, and there are rumblings by customers in many world markets that they don't need all the hi-tech features that have become de rigeur on even daily-driver family cars.

Value pricing doesn't have to come at the expense of quality. I believe there are a large number of customers who would be quite happy to dispense with high-tech fripperies and unnecessary luxury items in exchange for a lower purchase price. Being simple doesn't have to mean being "cheap" and even a brand focusing on "value" has room to move up into pricier segments.

Despite its high technical specification, the Camaro is perceived as a simple everyman's car, not a high-tech sports chariot. I believe its brutish image embodies a simplicity of sorts that allows it to connect with a "simplistic quality" image that I believe GM is shooting for with global Chevy.

Let the next generation of Daewoo-based Chevies tackle the old "Nice Little Laser" buyer, with Holden offering the more high-tech Opels for the more sophisticated driver.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by from oz

I disagree. The reality is that Australia has not embraced the premium small car market. We like them cheap. I don't believe that Opel can supply Holden with Corsas at a price that would be accepted by the market.

While I believe this is the case now, I don't think the same will apply in five-to-ten years' time. Given current conditions, there's no room for Chevrolet in Oz, but with the expected rise of the Chinese and the Indians, the market will be a completely different place in less than a decade's time.

GM need well be prepared for this possible scenario, and I believe that's all GM is suggesting by saying there's a possibility that Chevy may appear in Oz. If market conditions in Australia remain as is, then your proposal makes perfect sense.

[from oz]

Originally Posted by t-rex

I think it's important that we stop thinking of Chevrolet (globally) as a "cheap" brand and think of it as GM's "Value" brand.

The expansive rise expensive technology comes at a price, and there are rumblings by customers in many world markets that they don't need all the hi-tech features that have become de rigeur on even daily-driver family cars.

Value pricing doesn't have to come at the expense of quality. I believe there are a large number of customers who would be quite happy to dispense with high-tech fripperies and unnecessary luxury items in exchange for a lower purchase price. Being simple doesn't have to mean being "cheap" and even a brand focusing on "value" has room to move up into pricier segments.

Despite its high technical specification, the Camaro is perceived as a simple everyman's car, not a high-tech sports chariot. I believe its brutish image embodies a simplicity of sorts that allows it to connect with a "simplistic quality" image that I believe GM is shooting for with global Chevy.

The issue with Chevy being a "Value" brand is the Camaro and to a lesser extent the Corvette (as it is not a global vehicle), as these cars do not promote "Value" thinking.

One is a muscle car and the other GM USA's attempt at a legitimate sports car. Yet you are saying that Chev should sell non-high tech budget mobiles as well.

You can't spread a brand that far with nothing in the middle to bridge the gap and if they added these additional models they'd be cutting into Holden's pie.

[benroethig]

Originally Posted by from oz

If Chevy were to become Australia's 'cheap' GM brand what happens when the Camaro is released? It's not worth it in the long run.

Holden doesn't need a new brand to lob these cheap Daewoos... it needs better Daewoos that are competitive and are fit for the Holden brand.

You'd think GM and the members of this board would recognise the fact that GM USA is drowning in brands. Why pull another market down?

Also remember that as GM consolidates its products, these Daewoos are going to become a lot less cheap. Chevrolet would be redundant unless GM wants to start transitioning to a single GM brand world wide. It would be the same cars with a bow tie instead of that circular Lion thing.

[footney]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

DUMB!
If Chevrolet is gonna be GM's global brand... then there is no excuse for Chevrolet to NOT be in Australia.

Concur!!!

[benroethig]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

DUMB!
If Chevrolet is gonna be GM's global brand... then there is no excuse for Chevrolet to NOT be in Australia.

I can think of one: tradition. Holden is Oz's chevy. Why not use the brand that already has a following. It wouldn't take a whole lot of effort to scrape the Chevy badges off the Camaro and put Holden badges on.