Battle Of The Wagons: New Holden Sportwagon vs Toyota Kluger vs Ford Territory

[roteague]

Originally Posted by EllwynX

Kluger is one of the most horrendous names I've ever seen on a vehicle.

Much too reminiscent of Klunker... (Unless it's pronounced Klooger... Then it makes me think Loogie. LOL)

I believe it is named after a national park in South Africa.

[Kamshaaft]

Originally Posted by roteague

I believe it is named after a national park in South Africa.

Krueger national park?

Maybe Freddy Krueger (peadophilic serial killer that stalks your nightmares), Gotfried Krueger (the guy who gave us beer in cans), or Hardy Krueger (Semi famous actor from yesteryear).

[RedVee8]

Supposedly named Kluger as the Japanese are impressed with precision German engineering. Evidently there is a famed gun or pistol called a Kluger (or similar) and Toyota want to evoke the precision image.

[Toto]

Originally Posted by Kamshaaft

Krueger national park?

Maybe Freddy Krueger (peadophilic serial killer that stalks your nightmares), Gotfried Krueger (the guy who gave us beer in cans), or Hardy Krueger (Semi famous actor from yesteryear).

Paul Krueger, former President of South Africa.

[mikmak]

This is a Luger

This is a Krueger


This is his car.

Good to see a level handed review. On the Territory; it needs more than a refresh. Manufacture is a little on the questionable side. Open the tailgate and check along the top seam (where the roof panel meets the d-pillar) and see how well the sealant is fairng. Obviously in this price bracket, you aren't getting full LASER welded seams, but when you can push you finger in it (indicating that it is doubling as a gap filler), that's bad design. Considering its location, it is a bad weakness to have in regard to longevity. I can see many future second hand customers being very grumpy. I like the concept, even though it isn't up my alley, but I hate to think that Ford are going to end up with a deteriorated consumer confidence level because they skrimped on 3cm2 of steel.

The Kluger interior is well thought out from a showroom standpoint, but that removable centre seat on the second row, is flimsy as hell. When it slides into the front console, its plastic on plastic which means it will wear out rather quickly, eventually becoming one of those rattles that drives you nuts on the open road. Add the Wheels Car of the Year debacle, where ESP didn't cut in on dirt (resulting in an unfortunate roll over) and the Kluger is just a joke.

As for the Berlina, I'd skip it and cough up an extra grand (or more likely squeeze it out of the dealer) and drive off in an SV6 wagon with the 195kw 5A. Job done.

[Bravada]

"Kluger" means "smarter" (i.e. "more clever") in German, IIRC that's what Toyota was going after. When Japanese do loanwords, also for marketing purposes, they are not very concerned about how it would sound to a native speaker, or a speaker of a different language for that matter.

In case you were interested, e.g. the Toyota 4Runner is a "Hilux Surf" for JDM (and several other markets that get treated to JDM names for some reasons), and the JDM version of the USDM Honda Accord is called "Inspire".

[Ssom]

I'm still curious as to why anyone would get a Berlina? The fleets will obviously take the Omega, the younger private buyer will take an SV6 and I can only imagine someone paying with their own money will at least move up to a Calais.

[BBDOS CV8]

Originally Posted by Ssom

I'm still curious as to why anyone would get a Berlina? The fleets will obviously take the Omega, the younger private buyer will take an SV6 and I can only imagine someone paying with their own money will at least move up to a Calais.

The same sort of person who bought a 'Standard' sedan back in the olde days when a Special had more tizzy chrome bits and two-tone paint but was basically the same car, but the Standard wasn't as chintzy as a 'Business' trim.

The Berlina has nice enough bits standard to separate it from an Omega. Plus you can option it up to a nice vehicle including some colours not on an Omega with leather-faced seats and other knicknacks. You can get a limited slip diff except for in the LPG if you want, and in the sedan the 6.0/six-speed auto is an insurance-special Q-car option - gets FE2 suspension. It's lighter than an SS or Calais so it should be marginally quicker and more economical at a few thou off the SS which is basically an Omega with fancy guages, velour and a V8.

If I'd had the option of a HVAC aircon over dualzone I'd have taken in on my 'naro. Simpler and lighter is better to some people.

You get six airbags now which was one of the differentiators. 180kw is well and truly enough to motivate it for non-enthusiasts and as this test shows the car if driven sensibly will easily beat claimed economy once run in. Plus they drive pretty nice, nice 17" alloys. Low cost, low fuss, small target for thieves, simple and cheap to maintain and still nicer than a Camry at not many more $$$$$.

It's a conservative's car, but it has good points to it if you don't want to pay for flash.

I see a lot of private Berlinas in the dark red which looks nice with the chrome grille and alloys. Traditionally Berlinas have always fetched more on resale than an Exec/Omega, even when the Exec is optioned with the same bits. It's still basically a bargain in a fullsize car with comfort and plenty of space/go for Joe/Jill average and the kids. If you're the sort of person not comfortable with ostention, a Berlina says 'I am not a povvo or cheapskate, but also not a showoff'.

[RedVee8]

Originally Posted by mikmak

This is a Luger

This is a Krueger


This is his car.

Good to see a level handed review. On the Territory; it needs more than a refresh. Manufacture is a little on the questionable side. Open the tailgate and check along the top seam (where the roof panel meets the d-pillar) and see how well the sealant is fairng. Obviously in this price bracket, you aren't getting full LASER welded seams, but when you can push you finger in it (indicating that it is doubling as a gap filler), that's bad design. Considering its location, it is a bad weakness to have in regard to longevity. I can see many future second hand customers being very grumpy. I like the concept, even though it isn't up my alley, but I hate to think that Ford are going to end up with a deteriorated consumer confidence level because they skrimped on 3cm2 of steel.

The Kluger interior is well thought out from a showroom standpoint, but that removable centre seat on the second row, is flimsy as hell. When it slides into the front console, its plastic on plastic which means it will wear out rather quickly, eventually becoming one of those rattles that drives you nuts on the open road. Add the Wheels Car of the Year debacle, where ESP didn't cut in on dirt (resulting in an unfortunate roll over) and the Kluger is just a joke.

As for the Berlina, I'd skip it and cough up an extra grand (or more likely squeeze it out of the dealer) and drive off in an SV6 wagon with the 195kw 5A. Job done.

When I checked the sedans (at launch) I was put off by the dark headlining, and the base model radio/lower centre stack, of the SV6. Preferred the treatment in the Berlina except for the pale wood trim, which is now gone. I'd consider a Berlina seeing as they are the exact same price. I kept saying "I want a Berlina with the SV6 engine and 5sp auto" - but I guess that is what a Calais is. Test drove the SV6 in Impulse and my son wanted to buy on the spot..... however the 'voice of reason', aka wife, pointed out that leaving one kid behind on family trips was just not on ......

[RedVee8]

Originally Posted by Bravada

"Kluger" means "smarter" (i.e. "more clever") in German, IIRC that's what Toyota was going after. When Japanese do loanwords, also for marketing purposes, they are not very concerned about how it would sound to a native speaker, or a speaker of a different language for that matter.

Argh, makes sense - though the article I read mentioned German precision engineering and guns. I guess luger and kluger are close enough for them to tie together.
Closer than Starion and Stallion anyway! (although I think that is an urban myth).

[RedVee8]

Originally Posted by Ssom

I'm still curious as to why anyone would get a Berlina? The fleets will obviously take the Omega, the younger private buyer will take an SV6 and I can only imagine someone paying with their own money will at least move up to a Calais.

SSom, just put my reasoning in above. Plus BBDOS is pretty much on the money.

just think if you have a certain price ceiling you'd go Berlina - not everyone wants the SV6 look. yes, I'd love a Calais (have done since VK, SL/E and Premiers prior) - but if I can't scrounge the coin I'd go a Berlina, esp if the 5sp auto becomes available.

I think the danger to the Berlina comes from the Omega as they 'nice it up' and from the V and Lumina packs that come around annually.

Berlina, the Buick of Australia?

[Kamshaaft]

I drive a Berlina, it is a fair bit nicer than the base models, and can be optioned up if you want to be half as good as a Calais (those things are niiice - but it used to be that there was **** all difference between them and other trim levels before the VE).

Like RedVee said, the Berlina's recently been in a bit o' trouble with the Anniversary edition Omegas with the nicer rims, leather, and all the other cherries for quite a bit less.

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by RedVee8

When I checked the sedans (at launch) I was put off by the dark headlining, and the base model radio/lower centre stack, of the SV6. Preferred the treatment in the Berlina except for the pale wood trim, which is now gone. I'd consider a Berlina seeing as they are the exact same price. I kept saying "I want a Berlina with the SV6 engine and 5sp auto" - but I guess that is what a Calais is. Test drove the SV6 in Impulse and my son wanted to buy on the spot..... however the 'voice of reason', aka wife, pointed out that leaving one kid behind on family trips was just not on ......

I tend to agree but the the only reason I would pick one over the Berlina is purely the cheapest way into the drivetrain. i would prefer the Berlina front clip as i am not a big fan of wings and pointy bits. A 195V6 6M Berlina Sportwagon, with country pack suspension &LSD would be my ideal choice but since they don't exist....

As for leaving one kid behind, just remind your wife how easy it was before the last arrival

...yeah, doesn't work with mine either.

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by mikmak

i would prefer the Berlina front clip as i am not a big fan of wings and pointy bits.

Although I did see this one today:

[montrealvue]

Originally Posted by mikmak

Although I did see this one today:

Looks better than any wagon we have in North America....If it ever comes here sign me up!