60 Years Of GM Holden: Celebrating The Story So Far

[RedVee8]

Originally Posted by Stovebolt

And no one would have bought them. Like it or not, we Americans at the time loved our gas-guzzlers, as gas was cheap, and wanted the newest of the new, hence the yearly changes.

The small manufacturer, Holden, that went with unitary in 1948 was forced to merge with Nash, and the unitary body was dropped. Later on it was picked back up again by Chrysler in 1960, and their cars were by no means frugal when it came to gasoline. They did handle well comparatively though, thanks to the torsion bar suspension.


As for the OP, Australia should be proud. Her products from Holden are looked at with envy over here, and exported across the globe, often as the most exciting and loved GM products available.

Holden? maybe Hudson?

[RedVee8]

Originally Posted by mmciau

A yes, the 'competition' - Standard Vanguard with 4 cylinder wet liner engine (same family engine as used in the Ferguson(?) Tractor) - the first model had an on-the-tree gear lever operated by the right hand but it was a nightmare because the fulcrum mechanism would jam every now and then.

They were spacious - can't remember if they had 'suicide' doors for the rear seats.

The engines of course evolved to Triumph TR2, TR3, TR3A sports cars.

There were the Austins A30, A40 , Wolseley 4/? (not 80), Morris Oxford also competing.

Mike

Mike,
I actually mean all cars available at the time in Oz. Really only the Pugs that were as good for Oz and the had the same small engine stigma. The big Chevs, Fords, Dodges etc were really too heavy and too extravagent in engine for most aussies.

OT
BTW I wouldn't mind having a Triumph stashed away.
Now that is a Couldabeen Champion. Coulda Shoulda been a real BMW competitor, at least upto the 5 series. Assuming modern competent editons had continued...... Dolomite = 1; 2500 = 3; bigger saloon = 5; add TR plus Stag, throw in a X3/X5 competitor = happy days.

[mikmak]

My older brother had a Triumph 2000 as his first car. We all loved it (because he was the first amongst us to actually have a car). He loved it to bits....even after rear ending a tow ball adorned XF Falcon. It had a nasty overbite for the last few years of its life.

Still, that sound at full throttle was awesome.

[BBDOS CV8]

Top Gear's test of the Omega vs the XT Falcon the other night was interesting. In acceleration, the Falcon was a few car lengths ahead - not streets ahead. And the Commodore actually outstopped it, by a car length. I wish they'd done the slalom test with ESC off. The Falcon was about two seconds faster around the track, easily accounted for by 10% more power and 20% more gears.

Really, it was interesting how close they were - pretty much like they've always been.

It'd be interesting to repeat that excercise with the SS, XR8 and XR6T. I think it'd be close.

[mikmak]

I was working and missed the whole thing. Downside of working from home: work is just a mouse click away

[mikmak]

Found it. Good enough to post in General Car discussion. And I have just the title.....

[Baz]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

Top Gear's test of the Omega vs the XT Falcon the other night was interesting. In acceleration, the Falcon was a few car lengths ahead - not streets ahead. And the Commodore actually outstopped it, by a car length. I wish they'd done the slalom test with ESC off. The Falcon was about two seconds faster around the track, easily accounted for by 10% more power and 20% more gears.

Really, it was interesting how close they were - pretty much like they've always been.

It'd be interesting to repeat that excercise with the SS, XR8 and XR6T. I think it'd be close.

Omega was outclassed. The lower end engine and 4 speed really do let it down. Also the drag was not exactly best for the commodores engine as the engine produces its peak power at higher revs, which without sports mode enabled wouldn't reach that zone. Either way they need to test the SV6 V the XR6 for a fairer comparison on cars. Both with 5 speed autos and both the entry level sports sedan.

[mikmak]

On the contrary, I think it was a fair comparison. The both cost about the same. They are both entry level. Whilst your SV6 vs. XR6 comparison would make things closer, it doesn't make XT vs. Omega any less valid.

Both are pretty good cars and I think the childish section where they went drifting (of sorts ) was a good demonstration of just how far the family 6 has really come. Could you imagine doing that in a VN? Sure its possible but it would be on the edge of flipping like cheese omelette. I thoroughly enjoyed the segment.

[Baz]

Oh i don't mean that the test wasn't fair for the cars, i just meant spec wise a comparison between XR6 and SV6 would have been better. I'm just more keen to see the drag between these two. I'd expect the Falcon to be ahead but only marginally

[mmciau]

On Saturday night's (22/11/2008) Channel 9 News, they showed a 97 year old former Holden Engineer who had worked on the 48-215 (FX).

Quite a character and helped cut the big cake Holden had put on!


Mike

[RedVee8]

BUMP

This weekend there will be a documentary on the 60th Anniversary on TV. I guess it will be a similar thing to the 50th, though no Greg Norman.

Saturday 4:30 pm on Nine - in Sydney anyway - check your local guides.

SATURDAY 06 December
04:30 pm Australia's Own Car - 60 Years of Holden PG TV-PG Documentary, No Captions Nine

[BBDOS CV8]

Originally Posted by mang01

You'd be right if you meant 100% new chassis Commodore.. the 48 series, HQ and LH were 100% new chassis not "bodged on someone else's car".

The 48 series was based on the prewar monocoque Chev Y-195-15 which was never built due to WWII.

The prototypes were built in the US and it used a development of the Chev OHV six.

The HQ used engineering based off the coil-spring fullsize Chevs of the late sixties, albeit with bolton subframes rather than a full BOF chassis, not to mention picking up Chevelle pushme-pullyou styling. You can bolt HQ-HZ stub axles straight on any big Chev past the '57/ (although the geometry might be wrong the balljoints, tapers etc are the same).


The LH also was largely derived from the underbody and styling shared with the early 70's Opel/Vauxhall Ascona and Manta, Chev Vega and Monza; and like the Ford Cortina in the case of Ford, was adapted for bigger engines etc by Holden.



The VE doesn't owe much to anyone in engineering, except maybe a little to Audi for styling influence.

[mang01]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

The 48 series was based on the prewar monocoque Chev Y-195-15 which was never built due to WWII.

The prototypes were built in the US and it used a development of the Chev OHV six.

The HQ used engineering based off the coil-spring fullsize Chevs of the late sixties, albeit with bolton subframes rather than a full chassis, not to mention picking up Chevelle pushme-pullyou styling.


The LH also was largely derived from the underbody shared with the early 70's Opel Ascona, Chev Vega and Monza; and like the Ford Cortina in the case of Ford, was adapted for Holden mechanicals bigger engines etc by Holden.



The VE doesn't owe much to anyone in engineering, except maybe a little to Audi for styling influence.

Think we'll have to agree to disagree with each other as I consider nothing that you mention above = "bodging off someone else's car" of which an example for me is the VB and VN and VTs "bodging off" the Opel Rekord E /Omega A/ B, in that they shared to varying degrees body panels and other critical design features. The LH was similar to Ascona but shared nothing specifically except maybe the 1900 engine and was a size larger. The HQ shared some design features with the cars you mention (and much more specifically the 70-72 Pontiac LeMans styling than the 68-69 Chevelle's) but nothing really interchanged. (I thought if anything you'd quote F-body and '68 X-body similarities!). The 48 was completely redesigned from the original Chev prototype (which could hardly be called someone else's car since it never hit a production line). Perhaps I'll take your word on the engine because I believe the Y-195-15 had a 4 (or dio I recall that it was built with a 6 too to test which was the better way to go for an engine this size?) and I don't know how close the Stovebolt and the Holden grey engine were, although you'd think the latter would have benefited from another decade of design improvements.

[BBDOS CV8]

Originally Posted by mang01

Think we'll have to agree to disagree with each other as I consider nothing that you mention above = "bodging off someone else's car" of which an example for me is the VB and VN and VTs "bodging off" the Opel Rekord E /Omega A/ B, in that they shared to varying degrees body panels and other critical design features. The LH was similar to Ascona but shared nothing specifically except maybe the 1900 engine and was a size larger. The HQ shared some design features with the cars you mention (and much more specifically the 70-72 Pontiac LeMans styling than the 68-69 Chevelle's) but nothing really interchanged. (I thought if anything you'd quote F-body and '68 X-body similarities!). The 48 was completely redesigned from the original Chev prototype (which could hardly be called someone else's car since it never hit a production line). Perhaps I'll take your word on the engine because I believe the Y-195-15 had a 4 (or dio I recall that it was built with a 6 too to test which was the better way to go for an engine this size?) and I don't know how close the Stovebolt and the Holden grey engine were, although you'd think the latter would have benefited from another decade of design improvements.

The Chev engine was an OHV inline six with splash-fed mains. Holden pressure-fed the whole crank, and added some more modern features. I've been told by FX/FJonistas that the crankcases and crankshafts all came from foundries on the Clyde in Scotland because Holden couldn't cast them until almost the red motor.


This is the 1949 Velox made from 1846 - looks like an FJ, no? Windshield, roofline look like the Chev. It's like a halfway house to the FX - down to bolton rear guards.

Holden assembled and sold Veloxes until the fifties. They even had a 138 cu in OHV engine of about 60hp. Apparently the Vauxhall Velox six crank directly interchanges into the 132/138 - that may be apocryphal and I can't verify it personally. I've got an FX with FJ motor, but no Velox.


My point is, while very few parts will bolt between any of the cars I listed and their Hplden equivalents, Holden was adopting styling, engineering or in some cases parts from elsewhere in the GM world, and wasn't calling the shots.

With VE, Holden doesn't owe anything to anyone for the major aesthetic design or hardware; it's their own design, design language and production methodology.

I've always been a fan of Holden's adaptability, and until the XR Falcons to me very much played second fiddle. With the VE, they can even claim the engine because they co-operated in it's design and development. While the red/blue/black six and 253/308 V8 were Holden's work they didn't really get better after the red motors, apart from the very late 5 litres.

A lot of that wasn't Holden's fault or preferrence - the SOHC V8 Holden developed in the 80's was apparently good for 300hp in compliant form when the Chev 350 of the 80's was good for not much more than half that. GM apparently killed that because they were committed to the LSx by then. Like the GTR-X and other interesting projects Holden had.

[nota]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

Holden assembled and sold Veloxes until the fifties. They even had a 138 cu in OHV engine of about 60hp. Apparently the Vauxhall Velox six crank directly interchanges into the 132/138 - that may be apocryphal and I can't verify it personally. I've got an FX with FJ motor, but no Velox.

Grouse to have an Early Holden owner/member on GMI

Also heard lore about Vauxhall cranks being used in Holden Greys for racing, as the Holden crank was notoriously weak, and recently saw this info (below) relating to Vauxhall cranks in Holdens, from this bloke (youtube) (< don't you miss That Unmistakable Sound resonating through the suburbs every night just after the pubs closed?)

(summarised version)
'These Vauxhall engines were only out for a certain period ie 52-54 then eng design changed. Obvious was the location of dist. However, mods required to rear main seal, and front of crank nose and other areas. Two current Humpy racers that have Vauxhall cranks are Eddie Dobbs (ex Blanchard FE) and Phil Munday's, Ian Tate prep'd Brock Goodwood car.'

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

I've been told by FX/FJonistas that the crankcases and crankshafts all came from foundries on the Clyde in Scotland because Holden couldn't cast them until almost the red motor.

From Norm Darwin's The History of Holden since 1917, page 156:

"The first 48/215s ran Canadian cast blocks and Scottish forged crankshafts , the Australian cast block came into being at engine No 1002, January 1949. These Canadian blocks were popular with the racing fraternity as they could be bored to 3 1/4" + 0.40."
________________

FWIW I dug out this related Holden engine-manufacturing trivia:

GM Holden were casting Chevrolet blocks in 1937?. Part number 1788201 R in serial. ( I've seen it on one or two )

From what I understand Holden was casting a few different blocks during the war. Things like Tiger Moth engines and Ford V8s for Bren Gun Carriers and Gray Marine engines.

GMH Fishermans Bend design of the Holden pictured beside 1940 Chevrolet, it was designed when Hartnett was General Manager.