A Proper Comparo: Cadillac CTS vs Jaguar XF

[stick076]

Originally Posted by eaton53

I'd rather have a V8 any day.... especially once they DI it, which is surely coming.

Yes but what car will be your next purchase?

If the V8 didn't do anything for the Impala, Lacrosse, and Grand Prix, why on earth would it help the CTS?

If GM wants to compete with the big boys, they will need a V8. The smartest move would be to outsource one from another company. The LSA even cheapens the CTS-V. A supercharged 6.2L motor at 600+ hp is nothing groundbreaking. A BMW 5.0L naturally aspirated putting out 500 hp is. Even if a custom built motor for the V series cars cost $10,000 or more, it would be worth it in the long run. Look what it did for the Z06.

[Ytriox]

If the two cars are really that close, then the Caddy is the clear, hands-down winner. A loaded CTS costs less than a base XF.

It amazes me that so many here and elsewhere have taken to not just ignoring that fact, but attacking anyone who event suggests that price is a factor in car-buying decisions.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by eaton53

Where are you getting this 20% fuel economy difference? I've yet to see the LS get beat in a fuel econ matchup.

And turbos do not have an NVH advantage. You can hear them doing their little whirry thing, where all you need is some exhaust tuning on a small block. See some of the G8 reviews for an example... several reviewers have been surprised by the the unexpected lack of rumble.

I'd rather have a V8 any day.... especially once they DI it, which is surely coming.

I never said they did. However, drive BMW's turbo 6, its plenty smooth - more than the current LS engines.

Your second point just shows how bad the perception of that engine is - and GM has enough of a perception fight on its hands.

[ViperDVMan]

I'm all for using even the detuned LS3 in the CTS as an upper-level non-V series engine. The 400+hp that the G8 GXP is pumping out is nothing to sneeze at, and the car weighs about the same as the CTS, if not a bit more. If absolute power is needed, then use the 430hp version. Either way, neither the 5-series, E-class, nor the S6 are pushing those kind of power numbers. Only 380hp's the highest I see a V8 pumping out from this segment (from Mercedes' 5.5L V8). So in either tune, the LS3 trumps the other motors, both in power, torque, and fuel efficiency. Refer to my posts about the '09 XLR for my take on using the LS3 in Caddies.

However, the 400hp 3.6L DI twin-turbo V6 found in the Velite concept would work out nicely too, if it's more fuel efficient than the LS3. Either way, when competing with the 5-series and E-class, an upper-level engine is needed. Either the LS3 or a turbocharged V6 pumpung out 400hp or close to it will work great.

[68CoupeDeVille]

I think MG is right... again.

GM still positions Cadillac as a "value". Luxury buyers don't look for value. More often than not, they look for the exact opposite. Is the performance gap between a V12 SL and a V8 SL so significant as to warrant a $30k base price differential? Probably not.

But it buys you the little V12 badge for the side of the car and the bragging rights that come with it.

More than anything, a luxury car is a status symbol. And "Value" does not signify status.

[Ambalanche]

That's a trip! I really never thought of the CTS as an XF competitor and I owned one. Seeing them back to back, yeah, I can see it now. The CTS is truely a world class car.

[BigAls87Z28]

I wouldnt say that GM wont make another DOHC V8.

Caddy needs a V8. Not a turbo 6, not supercharged 4, it needs a V8. Being it Gen V powerd or otherwise, V8 is a must for a luxury brand.

[oachalon]

There is no need for gm to design a new dohc v8. They have the small block. Take the ls3 detune it to 400hp even 380hp and do some tweaks to quiet it down. Then put light weight materials in it like the ls7. Titanium connecting rods all of that fun stuff. You then have a small block v8 that is still cheaper than a dohc v8, is just as smooth, and will rev like a son of a bitch. The ls series engines are tuned right now for performance vehicles and or trucks. Both situations people sometimes want to hear that engine revving so thats why gm did it. I guarantee they can make the ls3 as quiet, smooth and definately as powerful as anything out there.

Think about it say a 400hp ls3 thats quiet and smooth and will rev to 7000rpms like the ls7. Why should a company be a standard like everybody else when you can just blow the standard away. Just because everyone does it doesnt mean you need to do it also. We can even put a sticker on the side that says DOHV. Dual Overhead Valve meaning 2 valves per cylinder. People wont know the difference.


If gm wants to go a different route like stated above punch the 3.6L out to 4.0L and give it 400hp.

[jasaero]

On the V8 vs TT V6 arguement, I must say that a TT V6 would be fine if GM can for sure solve the NVH issues with the DI V6 before they turbo a version of that engine. I really hope part of the CTS MCE is actually a rebalancing of the DI to get rid of it's horrible sounding upper rev problem that many reviewers point out. It seems to be a very smooth and nice engine until pushed into the upper end. I am sure that can be fixed. Also, I am only in favor of the TT V6 if it not only plenty smooth, but also actually achieve better fuel consumption numbers for CAFE than a similar powered OHV V8. I'm not convinced it could do that if you downsized the LS design to like 5L and added DI to get around 400-420hp. I am really ok with either direction though so long as the resulting vehicle matches or exceeds the best competitors on most any criteria you pick.

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by free_energy0

If Kia tried to do a Jaguar competitor, it would look like the XF. The cars styling just isn't up to what's expected of Jaguar. And in regard to the LS3 in a CTS; if the 3.6 DI is already getting dinged for uncompetitive NVH, imagine how the shivering pushrod motor will fare up against, say, BMW's DOHC V8s.

Exactly. I think the ultimate proof that Jag has gone downhill was yesterday. I don't get to spend much time with my mom now, so yesterday we went out for the day. Driving down the highway I spotted an S Type and said "hey look, a Jaguar". To my mother who knows nothing about cars, so much that she likely doesn't know how many cylinders her car has.

Her response? "That's a Jaguar, I thought those cars were supposed to look special?".

When someone who knows nothing about cars is disappointed in the looks of your expensive machines, you have a problem.

And quite frankly, the S Type looks a lot better than this thing does.

[logansowner]

And for the record their web page setup stinks. They tried to make a version of Adobe and failed epically.

What happened to simple, clean and fast loading pages? Every time you want to read on you have to friggin click, wait, and watch a damn advertisement. BS.

[stevecmh]

both are breathtaking.
finally a Jag that looks great.
good review and pictures

and why do we still not get those sweet Taillamps in America

[eaton53]

Yes but what car will be your next purchase?

I'm seriously considering Cadillacs and the Ute. The STS will have a Northstar but if it had an LS engine that would be great.

If the V8 didn't do anything for the Impala, Lacrosse, and Grand Prix, why on earth would it help the CTS?

Well, obviously those cars are driven by the wrong wheels!!

Originally Posted by goblue

I never said they did. However, drive BMW's turbo 6, its plenty smooth - more than the current LS engines.

Your second point just shows how bad the perception of that engine is - and GM has enough of a perception fight on its hands.

I've driven many BMW's.... They're the most overrated car out there and their "smoothness" compared to others is mostly hype - and that's coming from a former BMW owner. And they're down a lot of HP compared to an LS3.

I used to love them before the stupid gizmos and ugly stick beating.

I don't know where your getting this "bad perception" of this engine from.
Even the haters at TTAC like it and they don't like anything from GM.

The second point did nothing but show what is possible by tuning.
They can basically make it do whatever they want depending on the application.

[steined]

I think they would have an easier time meeting CAFE numbers with an LS as cylinder de-activation is more trivial with the pushrod design and more balanced in a 8cyl-4cyl design vs a 6cyl-3cyl design. Although, that being said, Honda seems to have figured it out in the van and V6 accord. I would love to see a DI, LS engine with Cyl Deactivation as a CTS option. 4.8 L with 350HP on 87 octane? Another $1000 option? Heck GM would make money on that since it has to be cheaper to assemble than the HF V6 with DI.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by stevecmh

and why do we still not get those sweet Taillamps in America

The clear taillamps are available on CTS and STS as an option. When you buy one, just tell the dealer you want the clear lenses.

Originally Posted by Ytriox

If the two cars are really that close, then the Caddy is the clear, hands-down winner. A loaded CTS costs less than a base XF.

It amazes me that so many here and elsewhere have taken to not just ignoring that fact, but attacking anyone who event suggests that price is a factor in car-buying decisions.

Of course price is a factor when buying a car. But in the luxury market, price isn't as big a deciding factor as prestige, brand name, and image. In this market, you will find people willing to pay what I like to call the "Mercedes Tax" or "BMW Tax." People will pay $5-15,000 more for a comparably equipped competing car because it's got the Tri-Star or Propeller on the hood. Or in this case.... a Leaper.

A base XF is equivalent to a mid-range 5-series. Jaguar is actually a notch higher than the typical German sedans. What Jaguar is trying to reassert is their heritage for sportiness, unrivaled luxury, and style. They are more exclusive than the Germans.

What it also does show is that for Cadillac to really begin competing in this segment, they need to look at adjacent competitors other than the 5-series. Look at what E-class brings to the table. Look at A6, GS ... and now the XF. They are world class luxury cars. Can Cadillac play with the big boys??

In performance? Sure. No problem. That hasn't been an issue for Cadillac since the renaissance began 8 years ago. It's the little things that still plague Cadillac. And they are mentioned in the review: push button start, unrefined engine, noise levels, strange option packages, etc. All of it needs to be polished, so Cadillac can make even greater impacts on the market and the consumer.

So yes, at this stage, it is so much more than price.