HHR SS Harbinger of CAFE-Driven Market

[JeffInDFW]

Since Congress wants to force this BS, then they damn well better be driving Aveos themselves. I want to see the presidential motorcade come pulling up and they all get out of 4 Prius instead of black Suburbans!

California passed that law to require the zero emission vehicles, and then later pulled that law. I think we need to get OUR congressmen on the phone and raise hell to get them to change this 35mpg law.....I hope as time passes people will lose interest in this and it will get changed....

[escaladelover]

Originally Posted by JeffInDFW

Since Congress wants to force this BS, then they damn well better be driving Aveos themselves. I want to see the presidential motorcade come pulling up and they all get out of 4 Prius instead of black Suburbans!

California passed that law to require the zero emission vehicles, and then later pulled that law. I think we need to get OUR congressmen on the phone and raise hell to get them to change this 35mpg law.....I hope as time passes people will lose interest in this and it will get changed....

Absolutely, It's time for the american people to know that we want CAFE Standards to be abolished.

[TimR]

Originally Posted by 04bonnie

They (government) are punishing the general buying public, so just wondering what else they will do

Probably nothing, everyone else has the ability to fight back. The general public does not.

[davidlane]

Originally Posted by Parkwood60

To quote directly from the NHTSA's web site:

"Do NHTSA’s CAFE values differ from EPA’s fuel economy data?

Three different sets of fuel economy values- NHTSA’s CAFE values, EPA’s unadjusted dynamometer values, and EPA’s adjusted on-road values exist. NHTSA’s CAFE values are used to determine manufacturers’ compliance with the applicable average fuel economy standards and to develop its annual report, the Automotive Fuel Economy Program Annual Update. The EPA’s unadjusted dynamometer values are calculated from the emissions generated during the testing using a carbon balance equation. EPA knows the amount of carbon in the fuel, so by measuring the carbon compounds expelled in the exhaust they can calculate the fuel economy. EPA’s adjusted on-road values are those values listed in the Fuel Economy Guide and on new vehicle labels, adjusted to account for the in-use shortfall of EPA dynamometer test values."

Does anyone know whee you can easily look up the fuel economy numbers the NHTSA is using, without doing the little math problem used earlier?

The answer is no! CAFE numbers not only use the average of the 1975 numbers they are based on actual sales by model, not the test numbers. Further, the fleet average is "harmonic average" based on actual sales by model.

[davidlane]

For those of you that strenuously objected to "Winding Roads" methodology they never claimed they were using CAFE numbers. I will concede they might have done a bit more work and gotten more accurate numbers.

However, a check of the NHTSA site for the actual CAFE numbers for 2006 and the estimated numbers for 2007 reveal the following:

In 2006 only one manufacturer had a portion of its cars reach the magic 35 MPG. The manufacturer was Toyota, 35 MPG exactly, on the import fleet portion of their sales. As I recall their import fleet includes the Prius, a hybrid.

In 2007 both Toyota and Honda's CAFE fleet estimate for their import fleets only will exceed 35 MPG, 38.5 MPG for Toyota and 39.6 MPG for Honda compliments of their hybrids. I think it will be interesting to see if their actual numbers are close to their projections.

For comparison GM's 2006 actual numbers were: domestic fleet 30.3 MPG, import fleet 29.0 MPG, light trucks 22.8 MPG. GM's 2007 forecast called for a decrease in both the domestic and truck fleets and an increase in their import fleet number.

[nascarnate326]

I was angry at CAFE at first but I see this as a good thing. We mite have to go a few years with out and muscle, but it will come back. Ask and you shall receive. If anything, it will make the value of 90's Mustangs and Camaros go up as they will be desirable.

[Steel4ring]

Originally Posted by parakleets

I've been trying to see things from GM's standpoint, since these CAFE increases have passed. Unfortunately, it starts to sound more like fear-mongering, than actively pursuing a solution. If GM wants to achieve this 35 MPG CAFE, their first step should be to cut the total numer of light trucks, crossovers, and SUVs by half. This might honestly mean ditching Hummer, and seriously scaling back GMC. GM has to identify Cadillac, Corvette, G8, and Camaro as "performance anchors", and do everything to preserve V6 or V8 performance editions of those cars/marques. Anything outside of those models should not get V8s, or turbo/supercharged V6s, and should aim for the highest MPG ratings.

What you fail to realize is the same thing the politicians fail to realize when they increased CAFE......it is that CAFE is not reflective of what the American consumer is telling automakers they want....all the pain of CAFE falls on the automaker, not you and me the consumer who still want 400 hp and trucks that tow boats and seat seven.

If the politicians truly wanted to change the marketplace and consumer behavior they would jack up gas taxes by $1-$2 a gallon and you and I would all of a sudden be begging the automakers for high MPG cars like the folks in Europe demand....of course that would be political suicide.....so they increase CAFE rather and place the burden on the Big Three.

So Lutz is right.....he is a car guy, and what he is trying to tell the American consumer is that yeah, I would love to build you what you really want to buy, but, the government is telling me I have to build something else, so since your behavior hasn't changed at the gas pump and your expections remain the same because no on has asked you to join us in helping to conserve energy....be prepared to buy some cars that you aren't going to love, are going to have to make sacrifices on power and utility or if you really want to pay for it you can shell out $3-4K more for what you really want.

Sounds like a real good way to craft an energy policy....we need to save energy, but you the American people don't worry, we are going to have Detroit take care of it and you can continue as you have with no pain.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Steel4ring

So Lutz is right.....he is a car guy, and what he is trying to tell the American consumer is that yeah, I would love to build you what you really want to buy, but, the government is telling me I have to build something else, so since your behavior hasn't changed at the gas pump and your expections remain the same because no on has asked you to join us in helping to conserve energy....be prepared to buy some cars that you aren't going to love, are going to have to make sacrifices on power and utility or if you really want to pay for it you can shell out $3-4K more for what you really want.

Watch Toyota introduce the first V8 that gets 40 mpg while Lutz continues to whine and cry. GM should fire Lutz and the entire marketing department and hire some G**Damned engineers...

There actually was a time when Americans would rise to a challenge.

[wildgoosechase]

The real effect of the new CAFE requirements is that people will be holding on to their cars and trucks longer. If it essentially becomes illegal to replace their Suburban they will hang on to their old one. Maybe we will begin to see used cars imported from Canada and Mexico too.

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Watch Toyota introduce the first V8 that gets 40 mpg while Lutz continues to whine and cry. GM should fire Lutz and the entire marketing department and hire some G**Damned engineers...

There actually was a time when Americans would rise to a challenge.

[ARCANGEL]

ok guys time to remove heads from hind ends V8's will never acheive those numbers, the reality is that cafe wasn't and never has been the answer all it does is raise cost for consumers and make cars weaker.

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by ARCANGEL

ok guys time to remove heads from hind ends V8's will never acheive those numbers, the reality is that cafe wasn't and never has been the answer all it does is raise cost for consumers and make cars weaker.

Having V8-equipped models that cost $40-50K would be alot better than having some pansy like Lutz unilaterally kill them (and thus remove any sense of 'choice' from the marketplace....). I'm sure there's people who'd be willing to pay for what they want...........

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

For god's sake, don't look for an injection of facts from Winding Road.

I can't believe they are just going to fueleconomy.gov and using those like that's what will go into the CAFE standards. For instance, the current Cobalt 2.2L 5-speed pretty much meets the 35 mpg standard. Since CAFE standards are judged by unadjusted EPA fuel economy generated by the 1975 test procedures, you have to take the 2007 window sticker numbers (since the procedures were changed for 2008), 25/34, and add in the 10% city/22% highway that was taken out of the window sticker numbers in 1984. This gives us 27.78 city/43.59 highway. Combining these in the 55/45 ratio, gives 34.88 mpg average.

It's pathetic that Winding Road doesn't seem to have a clue how this is calculated, yet they publish their stories for all to read.

I'm not suggesting that any of this is going to be easy or cheap, or that the automotive landscape won't look very different in 10 years, but it's best if we truly know what we are up against.

Excuse me, but isn't this exactly the same game that Bob the B~tthead (Can we do it, no we can't!!!) was playing in his original quote? I know that the HHR SS at 21/29 still probably doesn't get 35 MPG combined according to NHTSA, but why quote the EPA highway fuel economy number to confuse people?

Maybe the guy is a marketing genius because until this article got so much exposure, I had no idea that an HHR SS got 21/29 (not too shabby, considering that a WRX makes 19/25 and the Mazdaspeed 3 gets 18/26)

Note to Bob's PR handlers - THAT would have made a much better sound bite than the rhetoric this guy is currently spewing. There was that "crock" heard around the world, and the incessant whining about CAFE. Im seeing a disturbing pattern here - I don't care what his personal beliefs are, the guy was clearly hired to be an ambassador for GM and he's really been dropping the ball lately. Maybe it's time to hand him the golden parachute?

[TORRED1]

Took my daughter back to college yesterday in the HHR LS 2.2, 206 total miles, half highway and half mountian, the western Pa type. was at 37.8 mpg befor I hit the mountians and averaged 35.3 for the trip, If this car had a 6 speed auto i could see it hitting 40+ on basic level areas. I also average 25 mpg in around town driving, im sure that a 6 speed would also improve that. Im happy with it.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by ARCANGEL

ok guys time to remove heads from hind ends V8's will never acheive those numbers, the reality is that cafe wasn't and never has been the answer all it does is raise cost for consumers and make cars weaker.

V8's will NEVER...??!! Please be precise, a GM V8 will never reach those numbers...