2008 CTS Weekend Drive Writeup, Detroit News

[Murrow]

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

Greetings Murrow,

I have not seen commnents from Escalade owners that confuse their Cadillac with the Chevrolet Tahoe. But again, I remember a person saying they were could not tell the difference between the Cadillac XLR and Corvette.

All I can say is ok, so what.

JLM

All I'm saying is that the Tahoe and Escalade are well differentiated in their front ends, but that it's unfortunate they're not more unique in their profiles.

I don't doubt that Escalade owners won't confuse their trucks with Tahoes, but I wouldn't be surprised if other people do, and that's a bad thing. If, as you say, someone can apparently confuse an XLR and a Corvette, then Tahoe/Escalade confusion is almost guaranteed.

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by Murrow

All I'm saying is that the Tahoe and Escalade are well differentiated in their front ends, but that it's unfortnate they're not more unique in their profiles.

I don't doubt that Escalade owners won't confuse their trucks with Tahoes, but I wouldn't be surprised if other people do, and that's a bad thing. If someone can confuse an XLR and a Corvette, then Tahoe/Escalade confusion is almost guaranteed.

Greetings Murrow,

I understand your point it really does not matter unless that person is a buyer and it has some value to them. My comment to the person who made that comment to me, I asked a very simple question of them. There were two black sedans in the parking lot and I ask them did they look alike to them and they responded yes they do. The two sedans were a Audi A6 and a Mercedes-Benz S Class. I simply said to myself it does not matter.

Some people see nothing but four doors and that is ok because that says cars do not mean that much to them or they do look alike.

My point is the question is not that they look alike, but what value does the viewer hold, positive or negative?

JLM

[tgagneguam]

Originally Posted by Cabana Boy

"flawless" execution has nothing....I repeat....NOTHING to do with balancing a programs budget and timing. You set your targets, and you execute - no matter what the constraints.

I argued that no corporation can throw endless resources at every single program to ensure best in class everything, because they would not survive. Even Toyota is the master of cost cutting, but they manage it all better. IOW, they don't over-engineer things that the customer can't perceive, they just make it competitive. They focus their engineering on perceptual things like, button feel, door handle feel, etc. That is just smarter, and the domestics are doing the same it seems.

Curiously, who ever said that to be class-leading the vehicle has to be over-engineered? Even class-leading vehicles have their drawbacks. But it'd be refreshing to see more Lambda/GMT-900/'08 CTS efforts, which incidentally seem to have a better shot at directly and indirectly strengthening the bottom line than some of GM's other more recent efforts at "choosing battles." As I mentioned, building average vehicles may save money initially (remember, it only cost about $400 million to bring the gorgeous (ahem) CSV's to market), but as evidenced by having to close Doraville, pay the idled workers their 95% due, and of course the resulting consumer adoration for the four brands that brought these abominations to market, the indirect, longer-term costs are hefty indeed. GM has been playing the game of picking fights for several decades. As you are very well aware, that hasn't panned out so well for the General. Perhaps it's time to revisit the strategy? Thankfully, it seems GM is slowly doing just that.

[smk4565]

I agree with PA Dweller that I like some room to a car too, the 3 series is too small. And like him, I'd like 350 hp also, forget that weaker than a Camry base engine the CTS has.

How come the CTS has washer fluid sprayers in the hood? It was too hard to put them on the wiper arm like a 90s Cavalier had? Washer sprayer on the hood says cheap to me. I've yet to see the car in person since our auto show was postponed to April, but I'll be very interested to see it in person, and if they cheaped out anywhere else.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

Absolute nonsense.

It certainly is fine to have opinions of what has taken place but to speculate and then draw conclusions as if they are fact is simply irrational.

And I believe you are dead wrong.
And I believe Cadillac is dead wrong.
And there's nothing wrong with opinions, as most everything here on GMI is opnions.

But there is absolutely no reason why Cadillac should have to reshuffle its line up like its doing. They had it. And they botched it up. The only reason this could be happening is that their strategy implementation is faulty and lacks focus and direction.

They are targeting markets with the wrong products, just as I presumed they would do MONTHS ago, when it was discovered CTS would GROW in size.

My conclusions are my own. And they are based on the way I interpret the market and read the financials and articles written on Cadillac. It's called out of the box thinking. And guess what, I'm mostly right.

When people on this site accused me of being a Cadillac hater for denouncing the STS and calling a cheap imitation of a luxury car, I stood my ground. And guess what...SLS came out.

If I was in charge of Strategy at Cadillac and had a 5 year plan that turned out like THIS... with indecision and confusion... and questionable product placement... I WOULD FIRE MYSELF!!!

[smk4565]

MGESCURO is right. We seem to agree a lot. I am not a Cadillac hater either, I love Cadillac. I am frustrated. The turnaround started great, now it is flat, and the competition is pulling away fast. I don't want to see Cadillac where Lincoln is right now. The Camry has more hp than the base CTS, the freaking Camry. GM oversizes products a ton, they don't fit in the markets and then out comes employee discount for everyone. The gloves have to come off at Cadillac and they need to build some bad-ass vehicles. Forget the 255 hp V6, get a hybrid to boost image and get good press from the tree huggers, then get some bad press from the tree huggers and bring out a V12.

They should fix the STS and offer a V12 in the STS-V. The M5 has 10 cylinders, Cadillac should go to 12. If they could get a V12 (with cylinder deactivation of course to keep mileage respectable) at a semi affordable price, it could create a lot of buzz, like the Hemi Chrysler 300. Cadillac thinks catch up too much, how about they surpass the Germans for once.

[AndrewGS]

Originally Posted by fastball

Unfortunately, that does not make for a true driver's car. Think about it: how many Eldorados and STSs and DeVilles and Concours in the past have had "touring suspension" or "touring model" or "touring coupe" badges on the trunk lid? You could put Koni coil-overs and 15mm anti-sway bars both front and rear on an Eldorado Touring Coupe and it would still float like a boat.

True driving dynamics begin with where engineers establish the center of gravity of the vehicle to be. BMW uses the driver's seat where the driver's butt goes. Seriously. Then they design the structure taking in to account all sorts of physics and torsion equations. And they get to the suspension and steering part after all of the other immobile parts of the vehicle have been set with weight, strength, and rigidity as the key factors.

Then and only then does BMW and Audi start attacking suspension designs with their own pattented geometry.

Suspension components are the smallest, least important factors in the overall dynamic of the car. When Cadillac gives you the "touring package", you get slightly stiffer shocks and maybe better tires and spring rates.

BMWs are out of the box touring packages, and their touring packages actually make the car TOO stiff (from my perspective, still not a bad thing).

Tight, tight, tight. That's how GM engineers need to think now. Not just about the suspension, but the whole car.

I'm not talking about doing it the old way. I'm talking about designing a car to be as tight and solid as possible then engineering two types of suspension systems. If Mercedes is capable of doing it, so should Cadillac. MagneRide is a GM innovation and it's time to put it to use across the board.

I'm also not talking about emblems and monochromatic trim, I'm talking names, CLS and CTS, SLS and STS.

Originally Posted by smk4565

Hood ornaments are tacky.

Really?

[svx92]

Hey I absolutely loved the sport package that came on my 328ci. Fantastic car. Then BMW screwed up the look and Bangled a brand that was as crisp looking as a fine Armani suit. The interriors are horrible- downgraded in qulaity and less intiutive and driver focused.

The New CTS speaks to me much more than the 3 series and has the 5 beat from styling- BMW looks too Japanese-influenced. Although I've gotta give props to the drive and ride characteristics of the BMW. So I'm resting high hopes on the CTS. I have my inlaws interested when it comes time to trade in their 5.

If anyone has the chance check out BMW's site for the Drive for a Cure fleet. Each summer two fleet of BMWs cross the US. You show up at thedealership the day the fleet is there and each mile you drive, a dollar is donated for Breast Cancer research. Great event and cool fun to drive each model back to back.

[ral1960]

Originally Posted by jbartley

And back to the TOPIC of the post: this car is like sex on wheels. I can't wait to get one in a nice blue color. We don't have any specific dimensions of the interior yet do we?

Let's hope they have a better selection of blues than currently. GM's paint choices have been pretty poor lately.

The interior size is nearly identical to the current car. There may be a little more usuable rear legroom due to the thinner front seats. The track is 2" wider, but not the cabin. Wheelbase and trunk space are the same.

[CobaltSScrazy]

Originally Posted by PA Dweller

I am in my 20's and personally I like the 08' CTS more than the 3 series. The 3 series might be a nice small car, but I don't want a small car. Give me a roomy car that is comfortable any day. It has a decent engine, AWD, and all the gadgets I can ever want.

Now just work on an engine that can give us 350 HP, and a high performance V series. I just hope they make the 6 speed auto standard equipment because its stupid to spend on $1,200 on something that is standard on most cars. Make the manual a free optional transmission.

buy an STS...

CobaltSScrazy

[AndrewGS]

Originally Posted by svx92

If anyone has the chance check out BMW's site for the Drive for a Cure fleet. Each summer two fleet of BMWs cross the US. You show up at thedealership the day the fleet is there and each mile you drive, a dollar is donated for Breast Cancer research. Great event and cool fun to drive each model back to back.

I used to do that all the time. My favorite car to drive was the Z3 3.0i 6-speed Sport pkg. We, my friends and I, usually never followed the route and just ran up 5-10 miles driving wherever. I haven't been in a couple of years, but I might start going again.

[ChevroletRevived]

Mgescuro: what, exactly...IS your dream Cadillac lineup? I'd like to know, since they seem to be doing everything so "wrong".

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by ChevroletRevived

Mgescuro: what, exactly...IS your dream Cadillac lineup? I'd like to know, since they seem to be doing everything so "wrong".

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/s...d.php?p=979601

I posted a list here, but decided to make an entire new thread in "Staff Commentaries."

[CobaltSScrazy]

Gosh, I think I'm getting wet off Mgescuro's wish list...(JOKING!!!)

Only question is should SRX be CRX then IE: mid size not full size reconfig. crossover? For consistancy's sake?

CobaltSScrazy

(Imagine if Cadillac had put this effort in since '74? Think what could have been? )

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

Gosh, I think I'm getting wet off Mgescuro's wish list...(JOKING!!!)

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

Only question is should SRX be CRX then IE: mid size not full size reconfig. crossover? For consistancy's sake?

I would prefer not to regurgitate images of a Honda hatchback.
SRX has 5 years mindshare now. I prefer to maintain that "hook" into the customer's psyche.
But yes, to keep "consistency," it should be CRX.

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

(Imagine if Cadillac had put this effort in since '74? Think what could have been? )

Please don't get me started.
I modified my list a bit, so you might want to check it over again. I added "Main Competitors" and made STS a CLS competitor and created "F" series.
Also added few special edition remarks.