AIMS: New Toyota LandCruiser 200 Series Makes It's World Motor Show Debut In Sydney

[paul8488]

Oh geez... GM and Ford and Dodge don't sell over 2 million trucks between them each year in the US to soccer moms to get groceries with. Full size domestic pickups are the only choice for towing and hauling and plowing in North America. A farmer with a 1984 C/K pickup will go down and replace his truck with another Chevy 99 times out of 100, just as a Ford man gets a new Ford and a Dodge man gets a new Dodge. Australia might have some tough conditions, but the only plow trucks I know are domestic trucks. Moving a mountain of Canadian snow isn't an easy task, but it gets done.

Quit saying North American trucks aren't 'up to' tough conditions... if they don't suit Australia, fine, but it's not because they aren't tough. Check out an oil field in Alberta or farm in Texas or rural Canadian town municipal vehicle fleet... and get off your 'American trucks suck' high horses.

Saying that US trucks are no good as work vehicles is the same as us questioning Australian Utes... they obviously work, or they wouldn't exist. Just because they wouldn't sell in the US (just like full size pickups don't sell in Australia) doesn't mean they're no good... people are just used to what they have.

[Htay7500]

Originally Posted by paul8488

Saying that US trucks are no good as work vehicles is the same as us questioning Australian Utes... they obviously work, or they wouldn't exist. Just because they wouldn't sell in the US (just like full size pickups don't sell in Australia) doesn't mean they're no good... people are just used to what they have.

I agree. I think the utes are interesting, but it might have a hard time being in the US.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by roteague

Sorry to break this to you, but your Outback roads are really not any worse than in other countries, they just happen to be longer.

You know Robert Ryan IS pig headed and a bit of a blow hard, but you are equally flawed. You believe you know something that, you Sir, do not know at all.

You keep saying that Outback roads are no worse than elsewhere but are just longer. That is true. But it is like saying that spending half an hour in the bitter cold shovelling snow off your drive is like spending 20 years in a Soviet Siberian labour camp, only shorter.

Here is a map of Australia's Deserts and the map below it shows lack of rainfall in red. This makes our deserts close to the size of the Continental USA or Western Europe. You can drive 2,500 miles across the desert and still be more than 500 miles from the northern or southern edge of the desert.



So lets see some Aussie Outback roads:

Here is a truck stuck in what looks like a reasonable road, except that it is no more than a ploughed stretch of ‘bulldust’. Bulldust covers half Australia and is like talcum powder and you sink into it. See the Land Rover driving through some bulldust.




And here are some good Aussie outback desert roads:




Now we can talk about why GM and Ford trucks made in the US are not reliable enough to survive in the Aussie Outback.

The US has 300 million people. Oz has 20 million and they all live in the green section of the map above. In the US if you breakdown there is more than ten times the chance that someone will come along that US road than an Aussie road. In the desert make than 50 times more likely. Look at the roads above. If you break down on one of them you can wait two weeks, even a month, before someone comes along to find your body.

So your US trucks may only break down once in five or ten years, but in the Outback that would mean that they kill someone every five or ten years. You come here from Hawaii as a Tourist and visit some Americans working at Pine Gap and living in Alice, which is an oasis and drive out on paved roads and then 10 or 20 miles of gravel to snap a picture and you think you know the Aussie Outback.

We don’t advertise it, as it’s bad for tourism, but Europeans and Americans who think like you do die every year in the Outback. You underestimate it. You think it’s just like home only farther and more isolated. But it’s far enough that you can’t walk to safety and it’s isolated enough that nobody will come and rescue you. And you are then dead. So when you say that Aussie roads are just like US roads only longer, you should say that Aussie roads are just like US roads only they will cause you to die.

And now we have dealt with the roads, the very fact you talk about roads means you just don’t get what vehicles have to do in the Outback. There are no roads.

My cousin has a small 30,000 acre farm on the fringe of the Outback and he has not a single road on it, yet he drives all over it. Outback farms, which we call Stations, have millions of acres and maybe one road to the main house, and they drive their vehicles all over them. It has nothing to do with roads mate; it has to do with traversing all terrain.

[jcurry05]

Originally Posted by nota

Power without glory is about as luxurious as fake wood trim

Power isn't about speed in an SUV. Its just stupid to say speed is a downside of any suv. Its like saying a Lambo sucks cause it cant do off road. If you want good 0-60 times get a car!

[Gm786]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

You know Robert Ryan IS pig headed and a bit of a blow hard, but you are equally flawed. You believe you know something that, you Sir, do not know at all.

You keep saying that Outback roads are no worse than elsewhere but are just longer. That is true. But it is like saying that spending half an hour in the bitter cold shovelling snow off your drive is like spending 20 years in a Soviet Siberian labour camp, only shorter.

Here is a map of Australia's Deserts and the map below it shows lack of rainfall in red. This makes our deserts close to the size of the Continental USA or Western Europe. You can drive 2,500 miles across the desert and still be more than 500 miles from the northern or southern edge of the desert.



So lets see some Aussie Outback roads:

Here is a truck stuck in what looks like a reasonable road, except that it is no more than a ploughed stretch of ‘bulldust’. Bulldust covers half Australia and is like talcum powder and you sink into it. See the Land Rover driving through some bulldust.




And here are some good Aussie outback desert roads:




Now we can talk about why GM and Ford trucks made in the US are not reliable enough to survive in the Aussie Outback.

The US has 300 million people. Oz has 20 million and they all live in the green section of the map above. In the US if you breakdown there is more than ten times the chance that someone will come along that US road than an Aussie road. In the desert make than 50 times more likely. Look at the roads above. If you break down on one of them you can wait two weeks, even a month, before someone comes along to find your body.

So your US trucks may only break down once in five or ten years, but in the Outback that would mean that they kill someone every five or ten years. You come here from Hawaii as a Tourist and visit some Americans working at Pine Gap and living in Alice, which is an oasis and drive out on paved roads and then 10 or 20 miles of gravel to snap a picture and you think you know the Aussie Outback.

We don’t advertise it, as it’s bad for tourism, but Europeans and Americans who think like you do die every year in the Outback. You underestimate it. You think it’s just like home only farther and more isolated. But it’s far enough that you can’t walk to safety and it’s isolated enough that nobody will come and rescue you. And you are then dead. So when you say that Aussie roads are just like US roads only longer, you should say that Aussie roads are just like US roads only they will cause you to die.

And now we have dealt with the roads, the very fact you talk about roads means you just don’t get what vehicles have to do in the Outback. There are no roads.

My cousin has a small 30,000 acre farm on the fringe of the Outback and he has not a single road on it, yet he drives all over it. Outback farms, which we call Stations, have millions of acres and maybe one road to the main house, and they drive their vehicles all over them. It has nothing to do with roads mate; it has to do with traversing all terrain.

Oh, so your saying the Hummer H3 or even the Hummer H2 can't handle that type of terrain? If that's what you think then your sadly mistaken. Hummers were made for that type of terrain.

[roteague]

Originally Posted by Gm786

Oh, so your saying the Hummer H3 or even the Hummer H2 can't handle that type of terrain? If that's what you think then your sadly mistaken. Hummers were made for that type of terrain.

I've seen roads like that in the US, and I know they exist in places like Baja Mexico, Chile, Peru and other places. I'm not in the least bit impressed. In fact, I used to drive roads like that when I lived in Arizona - in my Chevy S-10 Blazer.

[roteague]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

You know Robert Ryan IS pig headed and a bit of a blow hard, but you are equally flawed. You believe you know something that, you Sir, do not know at all.

Your problem is you want to believe you are somehow, more special or more different than everywhere else in the world. You aren't. Be my guest in what ever you want to believe.

Perhaps, you should get out of your country and see what the world is about. Australia isn't the only place I visit, I travel to New Zealand frequently as well. As a Landscape Photograher, I'm always on the lookout for new and remote locations.

[allenk2]

Is this a car forum or a pissing contest. Seriously who gives a crap what an Aussie or an American drive. We all have what we need and as stated before we buy what we need. Aussies obviously don't need K2500's and we sure as hell don't want a Ute, we've tried it and they don't work here.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by Gm786

Oh, so your saying the Hummer H3 or even the Hummer H2 can't handle that type of terrain? If that's what you think then your sadly mistaken. Hummers were made for that type of terrain.

Originally Posted by roteague

I've seen roads like that in the US, and I know they exist in places like Baja Mexico, Chile, Peru and other places. I'm not in the least bit impressed. In fact, I used to drive roads like that when I lived in Arizona - in my Chevy S-10 Blazer.

It is really hard to discuss an issue with people who do not have the intellect to comprehend or the respect to read what I post. Don't look at the pretty pictures. Read the words.

As I said, YES THERE ARE ROADS LIKE THAT ALL OVER THE DAMN WORLD. Now go back and read what I posted. I read carefully what you post.

They could be paved in gold. They could be 6 lane concrete freeways. But if you break down on them you will die. Nobody will come along for weeks and you can't walk out of there - it's too far.

You two particular Americans seem to have rocks in your heads. It's the distance and the isolation that kill you and require a truck that WILL NOT LET YOU DOWN EVER. Can you two tell us hear with your hand on your heart that a five year old Suburban or Tahoe will always get you home? Because that is what the Landcruisers do; and I hate Toyota and love GM mate.

Look at the map of Australian desert. The whole state of Nevada is a postage stamp swallowed up in there. And Nevada has 2.5 million people. And lots of them go 4 wheel driving in the desert for recreation. You will get found in Nevada. In ten times that area in the Outback you have under 50,000 people, half that living in Alice Springs. You talk about road conditions, Aussies talk about distance and isolation. You just don't understand and you would be dangerous to all those with you in the Outback.

Every Aussie here defending the Landcruiser loves GM and hates Toyota's. So what does that tell you?

[VB3.3]

Originally Posted by roteague

Having spent a fair bit of time in the Outback, I can tell you that statement is not necessarily true. You are making comparisions without having anything to compare it against; there aren't too many Tahoes or Escalandes being sold over there. I have started to see a few H2s on the back roads there. Try going to the backroads of Utah or Nevada, for example, and you will find road that equal those in the Northern Territory (although not in length), and you will find plenty of GM and Ford vehicles there.

My word, I hadn't looked at this thread for a few days and who would of thought such a mundane topic, fourby's' could everyone so heated.

Everyone who thinks about OZ offroad, who isn't from OZ, just thinks about desert roads.

However most offroad, expecially for enthusiasts, s done on bush stracks. No wmost of these tracks have been built, modified, bashed, whatever you want to call it buyCruisers and Patrols with 33inch to 35 inch tyres.

If you drive anything else you can and will have difficulies.

Trust me I know, I drive a jeep offroad. First problem is the Jeep's track is narrower. Second problem is the front diff is on the opposite side to the *** built 4b's. So often you are straddling ruts, falling or in soft mud or sand outside of the compacted stuff. So you struggle.

You are part right when you say the H2 and H3 are made for taht desert environment. But I woul say the h3 would do better in OZ than the h2 and especially the h1. In the deser, in the really soft bulldust and sand, the h2 and h1 would have to make their own way throgh the sand.

If you have ever driven on talcum powder like sand, or a beach atr high tide it's bloody hard.

As I said I doubt GM, Ford and Chrsyler build anything that can match the Toyota range of offroaders, and I still believe that. The h2 might be good on formed dirt roads bit I just don't belive it would do much good on genuine offroad tracks.

It just doesn't have the wheel travel nor the ramp over angle to be any good. I think the h3 would be much better than the h2. Howver even the H2 is hamstrung by rear leaf springs and its IFS.

Toyota, Range rover have sought to overcome the limited wheel travel of independent suspension by tring to mimic a solid front axle. The 200 landcruiser does it by decoupling the sway bar, the range rover uses air suspension to push down the wheel when its opposite number is being compressed.

I don't know that any of the Hummers can do this. I know the H3 can't , don't know about the h1.

Hummers might be good offroad but they're not great.

[Robert Ryan]

Every Aussie here defending the Landcruiser loves GM and hates Toyota's. So what does that tell you?

Spot on.

[roteague]

http://www.iceposter.com/posters/car...Off-road_2007/

http://www.auto-power-girl.com/speci...il_offroad-859

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...4042&vf=1&pg=1

[VB3.3]

Every Aussie here defending the Landcruiser loves GM and hates Toyota's. So what does that tell you?


[/quote]

Good point!

The isolation issue is not just about life and death it's about support and infrastructure.

If you blow an axle seal, fuel pump, bend an axle or what ever, if you have a Toyota or to a lsser extent a Patrol, you will be able to get parts.

I did a rear axle off the stuart highway south of tennant creek, I had travel about 1500km;s until the next Jeep dealer, it was going to take about two weeks to get axle. I think I ended up travelling 3,000 odd km's to Townsville, the next state, before I could get one.

With the car and trailer covered in diff oil.

[VB3.3]

Originally Posted by VB3.3

Every Aussie here defending the Landcruiser loves GM and hates Toyota's. So what does that tell you?

Good point!

The isolation issue is not just about life and death it's about support and infrastructure.

If you blow an axle seal, fuel pump, bend an axle or what ever, if you have a Toyota or to a lsser extent a Patrol, you will be able to get parts.

I did a rear axle off the stuart highway south of tennant creek, I had travel about 1500km;s until the next Jeep dealer, it was going to take about two weeks to get axle. I think I ended up travelling 3,000 odd km's to Townsville, the next state, before I could get one.

With the car and trailer covered in diff oil.[/quote]

Forgot to add I was in a Jeep.

[Robert Ryan]

Roteague , you still do not get it. Climbing rocks and surviving are two very different issues.