Why are ze guhman cars so expensive?

[beelzebub]

I went to an audi/vw showroom the other day and was impressed by a4's interior. Midcycle refresh is tasteful. car is very nice despite being small. However, I think its priced too high for my blood. Why cant ze germans make their cars a bit more affordable??

Jetta and Passat are good but not impressive. Their diesels are supposedly 45 state legal which means if you decide to move to other 5 states, you have to sell.

Now I know why the japanese are so successful. Even a Lexus ES350 would be less expensive than A4. Germans want too much money for cars with dare I say questionable reliability and american cars.. well.. (gulp) feel a bit outdated. Even a jetta is getting costlier than a camry which is in a whole another class than a golf with trunk.

I read some good reviews about 2.0T's FSI (Fuel Stratified Injection) which is similar to direct injection in diesels. Stateside, its called Fuel straight injection since emissions rules wont allow the whole nine yards of high pressured stratified injection (somewhere around 1200 psi). Volkswagen seems to be doing good things like above and their DSG transmissions are supposedly buttery smooth. Now if they can make em reliable (including electrical stuff) and a tad bit cheaper.. It'd be definetely on my list when I am in the market.

I'd love to buy a german car since they feel so different and quirky than mainstream japanese or american but the price premium combined with poor resale (except for diesels) need to be addressed.

[Kowalski]

I took this quote from a German bloke (I will not reveal his name) who is a member of the Germancarzone.com

1) German law makes it almost impossible to fire useless employees - employee compensation is large.

German labor unions are very strict on that. You can fire employees, but you'll have to compensate the employee quite heavily. It makes more financial sense to keep them because of this compensation.


2) German law makes it almost to hire new employees because they can't be easily fired.

Hiring new employees is a totally different thing. When often look for qualifications and given the 12% unemployment in Germany, the companies are only selecting the best. The German companies are also not hiring many people because they expect to lay off many jobs at a latter date hence they don`t intend to keep them for too much long time.


3) German engineers get paid a lot for what they do compared to any other country in the world bar USA.

Wages are pretty high in Germany. They have to be since living costs are pretty expensive in Germany. An engineer is a very good job position in Germany and they make quite a lot of money. Universities in Germany have excellent engineering courses. Engineering has always been a German strength. Just take a look on History, it proves that. The Germans invented the car and their motoring engineering is often the standard where the others are judged.

That may answer your question.

[baloo]

German labor is expensive, but not because of useless employees. If someone's not doing his job, a company can simply lay him off. An employee only receives a severance payment if he's being laid off for economic reasons (company downsizing, restructuring etc.) and even if he's eligible, these payments aren't exacty huge. It's usually half a month's wage for every year of employment. If an employee is being laid off/fired because he's not doing his job, he doesn't get anything.

By the way, the reason FSI doesn't work in stratified mode is because of the high-sulfur fuel in the US, not because of stricter emissions laws.


A big part of the price difference between say a Camry and an A4 is that only one of them is custom-tailored to the US market and its particularities. The fixation on spec-sheets for example is one of them.

Nobody would decide on which burger tastes best or which house you want to live in based on a spec sheet, but for cars this seems to be the case for some reason. Some US-centric brands actually seem to design their cars first and foremost to look good on paper. 280hp, 14 speakers, 18-way power seats...done. Meanwhile some things that would actually make it a balanced product take a backseat, because the money was spent on the items that appear on the sticker.

Of course I'm exaggerating a little here, but what it boils down to is that a car primarily designed for Europe is more likely to be a balanced product while not looking spectacular on paper, and a car designed primarily for the US is more likely to be a collection of impressive stats while lacking in less apparent areas.

Ever wondered why a 260hp Altima or a 270hp Camry has smaller brakes than a 200hp GTI?

[beelzebub]

Originally Posted by baloo

By the way, the reason FSI doesn't work in stratified mode is because of the high-sulfur fuel in the US, not because of stricter emissions laws.

A big part of the price difference between say a Camry and an A4 is that only one of them is custom-tailored to the US market and its particularities. The fixation on spec-sheets for example is one of them.

Nobody would decide on which burger tastes best or which house you want to live in based on a spec sheet, but for cars this seems to be the case for some reason. Some US-centric brands actually seem to design their cars first and foremost to look good on paper. 280hp, 14 speakers, 18-way power seats...done. Meanwhile some things that would actually make it a balanced product take a backseat, because the money was spent on the items that appear on the sticker.

Of course I'm exaggerating a little here, but what it boils down to is that a car primarily designed for Europe is more likely to be a balanced product while not looking spectacular on paper, and a car designed primarily for the US is more likely to be a collection of impressive stats while lacking in less apparent areas.

Ever wondered why a 260hp Altima or a 270hp Camry has smaller brakes than a 200hp GTI?

I though sulphur was an issue only for diesel. FSI is in gasoline engines too (2.0T). I was talking about reduction in pressure of fuel injection in gasoline engines.

I like vehicles built for the whole world. There is some authenticity in such vehicles. However, it doesnt take away anything from good japanese vehicles that seem to last forever. My point is that I am willing to give Volkswagens of this world a try but am hardpressed to think they are good value for money. I am not talking about pontiac sunfires here. I am willing to pay the coin but after a certain age, there are other priorities than throwing money away for a small a4 with cramped rear seat. I might take a second look at them though.. If I go for german cars, it will be low end of audi/bmw/merc. Jettas and Passats are not in the running but who knows.. perhaps next iteration may be good.

[baloo]

The high-sulfur gas would raise the NOx levels beyond what is permittable while in stratified mode, so for the time being they just use a system that is not capable of that in the US-spec cars.

In terms of value for money, it depends on what you are looking at. If your main priorities are size and power, then by all means a car designed for the US market will come out on top. If you include "specs" that don't appear on a spec sheet, the gap will be significantly smaller.

Compare the US Accord and the European Accord(Acura TSX) for example. In case of the US Accord you pay for size and power, in case of the TSX you pay for refinement. Which one's better value? That depends on what you're looking for in a car.

[benroethig]

Taxes, taxes, taxes. The european cars would be 15-20% cheaper if they were built here.

[SonofaUAWman]

The only thing that is different between european and US FSI engines is that there is no lean-burn mode. i live in MA and i can't buy a TDI here. if the state follows what CA does then they can't get them. VW will be dropping TDIs from the US market for MY2007 and bring it back in 2008 when new EPA rules go into effect and their emmission system will be complient.


Can't wait for 2.0 TDI with 170 hp

[01cavalier]

Sulfur is a problem in both regular gas and diesel. Emissions is not the only problem, it also can cause problems with fuel pumps, fuel level sensors and the rest of the fuel system and cause catalytic converters to fail. The reason for the 2.0T not running in the stratified leaner-burning mode is because of this, emissions would not meet regulations. Lower sulful fuel is coming out, though it will be more expensive from what I have heard.

[big swede]

Originally Posted by baloo

German labor is expensive, but not because of useless employees. If someone's not doing his job, a company can simply lay him off. An employee only receives a severance payment if he's being laid off for economic reasons (company downsizing, restructuring etc.) and even if he's eligible, these payments aren't exacty huge. It's usually half a month's wage for every year of employment. If an employee is being laid off/fired because he's not doing his job, he doesn't get anything.

Your really ruining the perception on this forum that all union workers are lazy good for nothing @@$#@$!.

Originally Posted by baloo

A big part of the price difference between say a Camry and an A4 is that only one of them is custom-tailored to the US market and its particularities. The fixation on spec-sheets for example is one of them.

Nobody would decide on which burger tastes best or which house you want to live in based on a spec sheet, but for cars this seems to be the case for some reason. Some US-centric brands actually seem to design their cars first and foremost to look good on paper. 280hp, 14 speakers, 18-way power seats...done. Meanwhile some things that would actually make it a balanced product take a backseat, because the money was spent on the items that appear on the sticker.

Of course I'm exaggerating a little here, but what it boils down to is that a car primarily designed for Europe is more likely to be a balanced product while not looking spectacular on paper, and a car designed primarily for the US is more likely to be a collection of impressive stats while lacking in less apparent areas.

Ever wondered why a 260hp Altima or a 270hp Camry has smaller brakes than a 200hp GTI?

I've never heard it put like that but you might have something there.

[Member17739]

Lets not forget exchange rate, even though VW vehicles are pricy these days the company is still most likely losing money in the NA market. When it comes to BMW and Mercedes they are in better position because some of their vehicles are built in the US. They still charge a lot money for their cars but that's because, well, they can.

[CobaltSScrazy]

ummm... precision engineering with high quality everything in it. (even if it breaks LOL)

[tspax2]

Jetta and Passat are good but not impressive. Their diesels are supposedly 45 state legal which means if you decide to move to other 5 states, you have to sell.
New car sales are not allowed, not that a car is banned. These states have caused the vw dealers on the bordering states to have record sales.

Even a jetta is getting costlier than a camry which is in a whole another class than a golf with trunk.
I agree, a jetta is a very great handling euro vehicle. It is not a wallowly car detuned for the american market.

If vw/audi was playing the price game, they would bring the lupo here.

When the ulsd fuel is available we will have a glut of great cars. 60% of euro cars are diesel because of the fuel taxes and the cost of registering vehicles. Americans expect to change cars every few years and view it as a status symbol. In europe a 20 year old car is common, no disdained as it is here.
I do not mind paying extra for a car I can trust at 200k. I own an 86 jetta diesel with 420k. People here go WOW. In europe, I hear about good maintenance and a neighbor with 700k. My 89 525i has 300k and has been equally impressive.
My 01 subaru went through 2 headgaskets in 100k and my wife killed to gm cars in less than 100k each.
My 04 golf PD-TDI has 140k and is flawless, no CEL, 3 sets of tires and I would drive it across the world without a doubt.

[Bravada]

In europe a 20 year old car is common, no disdained as it is here.

Yeah, in case it's a Jag or Rolls. Which is not to say that there are people who keep their old cars in perfect running order and condition.

[black93sts]

Because they use the best of everything in their cars. OHC engines with DI and everything else. Meanwhile with GM you'll be getting the old 3800 :-P. Interiors that pretty much lead the world.

German cars have always been known for being loaded with the latest and greatest technology which is great (most of the time, until it gets TOO complicated for humans to use, i.e. iDrive)

[beelzebub]

I checked out www.vw.ca and built a jetta TDI. Came out to 30 grand with only one option (automatic tranny). In ontario, there is GST+PST which comes about to 15% tax. So, tack on 4500 bucks ... You are looking at onroad price of 35k CAD which seems awfully high now that canadian dollar is running at 90+ cents USD.