Alfa 8C Competizione will be built

[nadepalma]

Source: http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/ne...?news_id=14064

Alfa 8C Competizione will be built
03 Mar 06 14:48



Remember the Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione concept car? The V8-powered, carbonfibre-bodied, front-engined supercar everyone said Alfa should build? Now, over two years since the concept was revealed at the 2003 Frankfurt show, it really could happen writes John Simister.

'It is my dream to do it,' said Alfa's recently-arrived CEO, Antonio Baravalle. 'We have cut the budget for our advertising campaign and will do the 8C instead, because it is a perfect way to promote the Alfa brand. Sergio Marchionne [president of Fiat Auto] says if the figures add up, do it.'

The plan is to have a production-standard 8C ready for the Paris show at the end of September, and to take orders for a 500-car production run then. It will be a coupé, like the concept car, but another of Baravalle's 'dreams' is to make a Spider version later.

Final details of the construction are still to be worked out, but it will most likely be a carbonfibre body over a spaceframe chassis, like the concept. The engine will be based on the block used by the current Ferrari and Maserati V8s, and the end result will be 'more like Ferrari than Maserati' according to Baravalle. That means a flat-plane crankshaft and engine which screams instead of throbs. Target power is 440bhp, target price is as yet undisclosed.

Antonio Baravalle also revealed that Alfa Romeo will decide within the next month on the underpinnings for the forthcoming Alfa 149. The style has already been through customer clinics, but the engineering choice is between a modified version of the next Fiat Stilo/Lancia Delta platform or a shortened Alfa 159 base. Baravalle prefers the second option, because it would make for a 'purer' Alfa, but it depends on costs.

A replacement for the Alfa 166, to be called 169, is also under consideration. It will be a joint venture with Alfa affiliate Maserati because, says Baravalle, the Modena company 'needs a car this size'. It will have a V6 engine, mounted longitudinally to give rear-wheel drive or four-wheel drive. If it goes ahead, the 166 will be the first rear-wheel drive Alfa for well over a decade.

[Bravada]

Oh well, seems like good times for Alfa are coming to and end. This vehicle is even more surprised than Pontiac Solstice, totally against Alfa's current looks. Good news, however, that the Alfa 169 and smaller Maserati will be RWD!

[nadepalma]

I think this is great news for Alfa. I also hope that the further development of Alfa means good news for Maserati as well. The article says that they are looking to have the next 166/169 share parts with a similar sized Maserati. Which is a good move since it will keep costs down for Maserati to make a profit. And some would argue that Maserati screwed up the Quattroporte by sizing it along the dimensions of the S-Class rather than the 5-Series (which is closer to the size of the more traditional Quattroportes in the past). So good move.

On another note, the talk of using the 159's platform for the 147 platform to make a "purer Alfa" might be a good move -- but it also speaks of an issue within Fiat that I've complained for some time. And that is that Lancia is always playing second fiddle to Alfa. Now, don't get me wrong, Alfa is always going to be more recognized and is the one in need of development at the moment. Nevertheless, Lancia has been on the back burner for far too long. It's been essentially mismanaged and misused. Fiat always calls Lancia their "luxury arm" but they don't really give them the attention, materials, etc. that they need.

And to just illustrate how comical this is, Lancia has been selling very very well -- posting gains in nearly every month -- on just a few rehashed and warmed over products! The Ypsilon and Musa are huge sellers and they are posting big gains despite the Thesis hobbling them and the fact that they dropped an entire car-line: the Lybra. I can only image what kind of attention they would get if they actually were given funds to gain some sort of parity with the other marques in the group.

Just my two cents.

[Bravada]

Given that Maserati Quattroporte costs more than most S-Klasse models, I don't think that making it smaller would do any good. Besides, this size allowed for those divine proportions and shape. However nice the TGV Quattroporte was, it can't rival the present one on style, and it was the highest-priced small midsize car ever, probably.

Those round front lights make me worry a lot - Alfa's been doing vertical lamps for very long and it worked very well. Lancia has moved to round and high-placed (later changed to "diamond") with the Lybra and it was very good to differentiate the styles of both brands (while e.g. Alfa 6 and Lancia Gamma could be swapped between brands and nobody would notice). Alfa is one of the few brands (including Volvo) that are dead-on right with their style and shouldn't change the direction a bit.

Lancia's been doing remarkably well considering Fiat's negligence (some of the past execs even intended to kill the brand) and lousy brand portfolio. They are Fiat's Mercury - I've heard the next time they will rebadge the Sedici. If they get away with it, I say they are magic and they can do any vehicle on earth. Lancia Doblo anyone?

Lancia needs to replace the ailing Thesis with something serious-looking (go back and take a look @ Gamma, Thema and Kappa), and Premium Epsilon and this new RWD could be great starting points.

An executive-sized Maserati might do miracles for the brand. Fiat could use Maserati as a "step-higher" competitor to Mercedes, if they sort out the interiors, reliability issues and build a substantial service/dealerhsip network.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Given that Maserati Quattroporte costs more than most S-Klasse models, I don't think that making it smaller would do any good. Besides, this size allowed for those divine proportions and shape. However nice the TGV Quattroporte was, it can't rival the present one on style, and it was the highest-priced small midsize car ever, probably.

I don't doubt that the lines would have been different if the car was smaller -- but whose to say that they might not have done an equally good job? Also, price-wise, if they had made it smaller, you're right, there's nothing to say that it would have gotten cheaper either. But I would say, there might have been a chance, and in doing so, they might have made the car more "driver" oriented rather than technically sophisticated. I really appreciate the Quattroporte for what it is, but it is an expensive vehicle -- and something that really hasn't existed in Maserati's past (in that size). Conversely, a "cheaper"/smaller/5-series sized Quattroporte with a manual transmission and not so many electronic gizmos might have been more to the Maserati "purist" way of thinking. Just my opinion of course, which is why I like that they might go with a smaller car to be built alongside the 166 replacement (itself closer to the 5-Series in size).

Originally Posted by Bravada

Those round front lights make me worry a lot - Alfa's been doing vertical lamps for very long and it worked very well.

I wouldn't worry about it too much on a car like this -- it's probably going to be a limited run and is one of those niche vehicles that comes along now and then to stand out in a brand's lineup. I see your point though. But in this case, I think that people will just love having the car on the road

Originally Posted by Bravada

Alfa is one of the few brands (including Volvo) that are dead-on right with their style and shouldn't change the direction a bit.

AGREED!

Originally Posted by Bravada

Lancia's been doing remarkably well considering Fiat's negligence (some of the past execs even intended to kill the brand) and lousy brand portfolio. They are Fiat's Mercury - I've heard the next time they will rebadge the Sedici. If they get away with it, I say they are magic and they can do any vehicle on earth. Lancia Doblo anyone?

I don't know about a Lancia Doblo -- but it might look good who knows!!!

They are going to redo a Sedici (nee SX4) for Lancia. I don't know what it will look like yet, as sites like Automobilisimo.it and ItaliaSpeed.com haven't show any pics or renderings yet. But I assume it will look much nicer and classier than the Sedici does. And probably have a nicer name too (Sedici means 16 in Italian and is a play on "4x4"). I've heard it might be called "Pangea" -- Greek for "All Earth" but certainly not a Greek letter that I know of.

I agree with what you say about Lancia -- it is a neglected brand and it does need more attention. Thats what I was trying to say above -- they've been absolutely resilient with what they've had to work with. They get a few warmed over products and they are still fighting and getting market share!! Unbeliveable -- that should show Fiat just what kind of brand equity exists with this historic marque.

There are absolute parallel's between Mercury and Lancia. Though I think that overall Lancias are better differentiated when compared to Mercurys, both brands seem to have done well with the limited resources they've had. Despite Ford's mismanagement, the Mercury brand has attracted more new customers (primarily women) than other Ford brands. Not sure what the makeup is for Lancia, but they are undoubtedly attractive cars -- that happen to get relegated to the back burner when it comes to prodcut!

The ironic thing is that Lancia really was kind of an Alfa twin back in the day -- that is to say that they were a technology driven company and went after the same kind of sporting customers. Lancia, though, was more elegant while Alfa was more aggressive in styling, etc (this is just my opinion of course).

Originally Posted by Bravada

Lancia needs to replace the ailing Thesis with something serious-looking (go back and take a look @ Gamma, Thema and Kappa), and Premium Epsilon and this new RWD could be great starting points.

I think that if Lancia were to be better aligned with Alfa (that is to say they share the "Premium Platform" Alfa co-developed with Saab) it would be much better for Lancia in the long run. They can both go after similar customers, but while Alfa would be "Sport first, Luxury second", Lancia could be "Luxury first, Sport second" -- two sides of a similar coin.

You're right, cars like the Thesis need to be updated. Using the same platform as the 166's replacement would be wise. Same goes for the Lybra -- there is no successor yet, though they are talking about getting a Delta to market soon. This is fine, but Lancia needs to be invested in. The next Thesis should be the starting point, give it the same platform as the 169, give it classy, elegant styling -- and bring back the classic names from the past. I know that Lancias stared off with Greek alphabet names then later went to Imperial Roman road names like Aurelia, Flavia, Appia, etc. They should go back to that and embrace their "Latin-ness" to make them more distinctly Italian. Obviously they can mix in the other classic-Greek names like Delta and Thema -- but still it would be nice for them to get back to some of their more memorable names like at the end of the 1960s/early 1970s. Again, just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Bravada

An executive-sized Maserati might do miracles for the brand. Fiat could use Maserati as a "step-higher" competitor to Mercedes, if they sort out the interiors, reliability issues and build a substantial service/dealerhsip network.

I think that a larger executive car might work for Lancia. But I also think that using the Quattroporte platform might be a bit too expensive for them to do it right. Nevertheless, they could "cheapen" the platform -- that is, do what Ford did when they took the Volvo P2 platform and made it the Ford D3 platform by replacing expensive materials with stamped steel, etc. This might work.

And in all honesty, if Lancia is Fiat's "luxury" arm like they claim, then they should try and compete in that segment!! There is no reason that Fiat shouldn't invest in them and give them a wider audience. Honestly, Lancia should make their way to the UK market, to China -- and bring them back to AMERICA! I'd love to see a new Lancia on our roads. Hell, Fiat has a bad connotation here in the States -- but if they could "Lancia-ize" some of their lineup and bring it to America as a Lancia that could be a way for them to get a larger audience!

Even in the interim though, Fiat could do more to make Lancia more appealing. Giving the current Thesis a bit of a refresh in the front and rear would go a long way toward making it more attractive to some customers. The interior is very nice, but honestly the exterior needs work. I can see what the designer (American Mike Robinson) was after, but it needs to be brought more in line with what the Ypsilon has done for Lancia.

[yassir(snowman)]

wow that car is hot.

[Bravada]

I just consulted my 1982/83 "auto katalog", and the Mk III Quattroporte was closer in all dimensions to S-Klasse Mercedes than any other Mercedes of that time - a bit smaller, but also bigger than the 7er of that time, and in fact only a bit smaller than the present Quattroporte. It was more of a sporty luxury car than a sporty executive.

I also never heard of any excessive technology in the Quattroporte. The excess might be the Cambiocorsa (which probably means "won't shift" in Italian ), but it's optional (standard QP comes with a 6-speed manual). What makes Maseratis so expensive is not technology or size - the culprit are the very short production series.

My view of Maserati is that they should be Fiat's "upper" luxury brand, so they have to have an S-Klasse sized vehicle. An executive won't hurt, however - the problem would be, how to call it? 425?

Lancia would be Fiat's "lower" luxury brand, which could help Maserati's chances to retain the exclusivity factor, which would be the upper hand against Mercedes and BMW, and also would allow Lancia to retain their unique position in the "small luxury car" segment.

A lusso version of the SX4 is too much of a stretch, I believe. I've seen a chop somewhere and it's an abomination if it would anything like that, and it probably will! As concerns the name - Phedra was a bit out of context, Musa was a bit uninspired (pun unintended), Thesis was desperate, but Pangea is terrible! I hope that it flops and Lancia will quickly pull it.

I don't care for "Roman" Lancias too much - the second slew of "Greek letter" cars are the ones I like. All my favorite Lancias bore letter names - Ypsilon, Delta, Beta series, Gamma, Kappa and Zeta. I would gladly see the return to this naming convention, which would bring clarity in and mark a rebirth of this venerable brand now kept on life support.

"My Ideal Lineup" would look like this:

Ypsilon - as is, based on a Punto
Mu - the Musa, as the concept seems to have caught on
Sigma - the Fulvia roadster as shown in concept form
Delta - luxury compact hatchback in a traditional style (no high-roof minivan wannabe)
Beta - a small midsize luxury sedan (or liftback!)
Theta - Beta wagon a la Lybra wagon
Iota - Beta HPE ("shooting brake")
Gamma - executive liftback (and perhaps wagon)
Kappa or Lambda - Gamma coupe (the other name might be used for Gamma wagon)
Zeta - the minivan

I only see some possible trademarking issues.

[heals120]

Now way! That is such a hot car too. I hope Alfa returns to the US.

[AMcA]

I was just looking at some photos of the undeniably gorgeous Competitizione roadster. And that windshield header kept looking familiar. Solstice, I kept thinking. And I think I'm right. Compare:

http://www.autointell.com/cgi-bin/sc...concoso-06.htm


with

http://www.pontiac.com/solstice/index.jsp.

Yup, this Alfa's a Kappa.

[ChevroletRevived]

Cool! I always LOVED that car.