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Thread: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    I think they(GM, but really Ford and Chrysler too) should do more performance flagship large sedans, but that's because in my intuition I don't think the incremental cost of these things is that big. Most of the cost of engineering a new model/platform is in the design of the unibody and the styling, I think. Simply adding a larger engine and other performance upgrades actually doesn't cost very much, in the big scheme of things. They get to charge a price far higher than what it probably cost them to build them on top of what they've already spent to make the base model. It won't be *profitable* because they obviously don't sell in big volume but the marketing/brand image benefits are huge for something that really doesn't cost much.

    Again that's just sort of my intuition on this, I don't actually know for a fact if that's how it works.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by donmateo View Post
    Cadillac, please..... Hope for the best, anticipate the worst, though.
    "um, uh...we have this:"
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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by JBsZ06 View Post
    At least the new Lincoln mkz is as fast!(mks)?


    Good to see this 126 grand 4600 lb beast can roll out quick acceleration. Is the S7 as fast or Audi beautiful S5?


    How does. It stack up to it's German and British rivals?

    Jaguar xjR ......mb e or s63 or s65?.... BMW m series 5 which is rear wheel drive?

    I d still take the cts V coupe over any of the vehicles if it were my money...


    It's been said there is a lot more to performance from a roll than a dig and often times that's where all wheel drive is not the end all.....otherwise why are BMW m series all rear wheel drive cars?... The ultimate driving machine from Germany chides rear wheel drive over all wheel drive for what reason?

    Or is the new much heralded M 3 coming in it's next generation as all wheel drive?
    I also would prefer the V over all of these cars, and although it gives up launch traction no one aside from myself would ever call a vehicle with a 118 mph trap speeds slow. Simply put AWD is a band aid utilized on these vehicles because they are inherently FWD , and that would never work for a true performance vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by goblue View Post
    I disagree, and also have experience with cars in mid 300hp RWD range.

    In this country, unless you are taking it to a track, the operating speed is 0-80 or so. Once you pull second or third, you're right, 400 to the rear wheels, or even 500 is fine - and that's on near perfect pavement on a dry day. But while you're in first, this is just too much power and is pissed away by torque management (human or computer). Throw in our awful roads, etc and even 500 in second has to be limited. We don't have an autobahn - there's no public place to rocket to 150. That's why AWD is so key, it allows full torque to the wheels in first and second gear. That's where most Americans are going to get the thrill and use the power. Further, a touch of water, or a ripple in the pavement doesn't mess anything up. Forget the benefits in real weather where RWD just doesn't compare in any meaningful way (and you know that). Also, making the tires any larger adversely affects performance in weather. Also hurts fuel economy.

    I'm surprised that Germany leads us in technology that is more applicable here, than there!
    As someone who owns two of each vehicle type in some ways I am quite qualified to speak on this subject. Take my 300C for instance which I specifically bought RWD despite the best efforts of my dealer to offer me an AWD 300C. In exchange for better inclement weather traction I would have to put up with compromised ride/ handling balance, fuel economy, and performance as well as aesthetic things like a slightly raised ride height. Keep in mind that the Audi Quattro system mainly masks the chassis inherent FWD based AWD system, and does not propel it to the front of the class for handling. AWD in , and of itself is a beneficial addition to an inherently good RWD chassis which makes cars like the GTR notable in many ways.

    Also there are many ways that a powerful RWD car can easily put down the power levels that you state, and some of them have no issue with it in showroom spec. I drive quite regularly a 446 rwhp showroom stock 392 Challenger, and that car has no issue putting down that level of power to a 255 width rear tire even in 1st gear with a driver that is skilled in RWD vehicles. Simply put my time in a 720 hp RWD C5 makes me a far better driver than had that time have been spent in an AWD car that invites a driver to utilize throttle control that would send them backwards into a hedge in a powerful RWD car.

    FOR THE AVERAGE DRIVER AWD HAS SIGNIFICANT BENEFITS BUT FOR THOSE THAT DERIVE GREAT JOY FROM DRIVING NOTHING BEATS A POWERFUL RWD CAR.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    I also would prefer the V over all of these cars, and although it gives up launch traction no one aside from myself would ever call a vehicle with a 118 mph trap speeds slow. Simply put AWD is a band aid utilized on these vehicles because they are inherently FWD , and that would never work for a true performance vehicle.
    .
    Too funny; yes, and once again you display your complete lack of knowledge on the subject, actually most subjects – educated to the facts is no burden, ignorance is not bliss. Spamming almost every GMI discussion with nonsense ruins many threads – congratulations. ;-)
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    PS. Still waiting for you to post some proof… oh well, no hurry ;-)

    Next Audi A4 to use e-quattro AWD, shed weight
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    Audi considers RWD layout, ditching all-aluminum platform for next A8
    Last edited by Quest; 10-30-2012 at 08:17 AM. Reason: add'l link
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    Longitudinal powertrain Audi vehicles with quattro are indistinguishable from RWD vehicles with Full-Time AWD; both meet the criteria to be labeled RWD/AWD - to argue otherwise is a “logical fallacy” (argumentum ad logicam).

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Can anyone perhaps discern for me what the definition of inherently is? Can anyone also illuminate me as to what drivetrain configuration the Audi A8 would be were it not AWD? Has the S class, 7 series, or XJ ever came in a FWD alternative or variant, and is it not true that the A8 is the only luxury car that is a FWD based AWD vehicle?

    I find it a bit sad that I have to endure personal attacks from people who lack the ability to actually prove that I am wrong. If I truly bring nothing to this forum but spam than perhaps I should leave this forum to those who are truly knowledgeable, and would like to overrun this great forum with insults aimed at GM owners.
    Last edited by germeezy1; 10-30-2012 at 11:48 AM.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Offering a longitudinal powertrain as FWD does not make said vehicle inherently FWD only a transverse powertrain arrangement would satisfy such a statement. This is fact. The Facts speak for themselves both concerning the A8 and other... What’s truly unfortunate…. well… for another day. Hypocrisy or laugh of the day/morning-smile??
    Any rigidity by an automobile manufacturer, no matter how large or how well established, is severely penalized in the market.
    -Alfred P. Sloan Jr. (1965) My Years with General Motors.

    Longitudinal powertrain Audi vehicles with quattro are indistinguishable from RWD vehicles with Full-Time AWD; both meet the criteria to be labeled RWD/AWD - to argue otherwise is a “logical fallacy” (argumentum ad logicam).

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    .
    Too funny; yes, and once again you display your complete lack of knowledge on the subject, actually most subjects – educated to the facts is no burden, ignorance is not bliss. Spamming almost every GMI discussion with nonsense ruins many threads – congratulations. ;-)
    .
    .
    PS. Still waiting for you to post some proof… oh well, no hurry ;-)

    Next Audi A4 to use e-quattro AWD, shed weight
    .
    Porsche to share Panamera platform with Bentley, will underpin all future models

    Audi considers RWD layout, ditching all-aluminum platform for next A8
    How about skipping the pithy insults and sticking to making your points?
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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    In a way the Omega/ ULS sedan has already been confirmed, and his point was that every manufacturer does not need to do a super large sports sedan in the vein of the S8. I would emphatically agree with that, and also remind many that BMW refused to make an M variant of the 7 series for a myriad of reasons.
    Look. It's been since 2003 that Cadillac even hinted at the possibility of a flagship. It's been essentially 10 years, and we've seen 2 iterations of possible flagships. None of which will ever come to fruition.
    So, until I see or read about a greenlighted model, a flagship is all vaporware.

    BMW refuses to build an M7 because they believe the performance of an M7 would have to so high as to justify the "M" badge. This is the same reason why Jaguar has not released an XJR. They believe that 510HP (at the time) isn't sufficient to warrant the "R" badge. That was before the 550HP engine in the XKR-S debuted. However, I'd be willing to wager that even 550 HP isn't enough.

    This also hasn't stopped Mercedes from creating S63 and S65 -- both performance and luxury oriented.

    IMHO, an M7 or XJR would need 575+ HP to be inline with the S-class models. I think that number is attainable with what BMW and Jaguar have in-house today.


    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    Rolls Royce does not presently offer a super sports sedan variant to match Bentley with their Speed variants, and truthfully there are benefits to Rolls Royce's as well as Bentley's approach to his quandary.
    Rolls, historically, isn't a "sport" brand. So a "Speed" variant isn't aligned with their brand. Furthermore, Rolls sees themselves as still a step above Bentley.


    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    Keep in mind if you will that Cadillac does not need a performance variant of the Omega if they have a luxury variant, and also that Audi being a global brand will have a far easier time justifying a car that will not sell in high volume in the US but is offered in many markets globally. It will simply go down to the product's intended purpose, and perhaps the ULS/ Omega will be positioned as a true luxury car not a sports luxury sedan. Cadillac up to this point has maintained the Ethos of the V sub brand, and at this point V has far more brand clarity than M. If the ULS will not be positioned as a sports luxury sedan , and it will be marketed based on it's cossetting ride as well as traditional Cadillac comfort than why sully the V sub brand?

    I sincerely hope that Cadillac has higher aspirations than the Audi A8 because it is a product that in many ways falters in this class. The ULS/ Omega should have aspirations for no less than a true S class/ XJ/ 7 series competitor.
    Cadillac is fooling themselves if they are still attempting to build cars that are "US oriented." Their attitude should be a global one. Just because Cadillac's "traditional buyer group" may not buy the flagship, doesn't mean that there aren't Asian customers that wouldn't kill for something different and equally as luxurious as the Germans.

    There's a problem here. Cadillac really hasn't define what the hell kind of luxury brand they are. And this is something I've been stating for years. "What exactly are they?" What's the goal? The brand focus? Are they a luxury brand? A sport luxury brand? An attainable luxury brand? They have a multi-pronged approach that never works with customers because there is no real focus to the company and brand.

    We see where Cadillac is going with ATS. We can assume CTS will be similar. Then we can believe Omega will be more in line with the sport luxury segment. And if it's not, then Cadillac has a product development problem.


    A8 is the new "king" of the flagships. At least in the media's eye. Personally, I think the S still holds the crown. And I'm pretty sure you can bet the latest one will be a technical masterpiece.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by vanshmack View Post
    How about skipping the pithy insults and sticking to making your points?
    If you read the threads above you will see this example below with Quest sitting, and me and Monaro SS among others at the chalk/ white board.




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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by mgescuro View Post
    Look. It's been since 2003 that Cadillac even hinted at the possibility of a flagship. It's been essentially 10 years, and we've seen 2 iterations of possible flagships. None of which will ever come to fruition.
    So, until I see or read about a greenlighted model, a flagship is all vaporware.

    BMW refuses to build an M7 because they believe the performance of an M7 would have to so high as to justify the "M" badge. This is the same reason why Jaguar has not released an XJR. They believe that 510HP (at the time) isn't sufficient to warrant the "R" badge. That was before the 550HP engine in the XKR-S debuted. However, I'd be willing to wager that even 550 HP isn't enough.

    This also hasn't stopped Mercedes from creating S63 and S65 -- both performance and luxury oriented.

    IMHO, an M7 or XJR would need 575+ HP to be inline with the S-class models. I think that number is attainable with what BMW and Jaguar have in-house today.



    Rolls, historically, isn't a "sport" brand. So a "Speed" variant isn't aligned with their brand. Furthermore, Rolls sees themselves as still a step above Bentley.




    Cadillac is fooling themselves if they are still attempting to build cars that are "US oriented." Their attitude should be a global one. Just because Cadillac's "traditional buyer group" may not buy the flagship, doesn't mean that there aren't Asian customers that wouldn't kill for something different and equally as luxurious as the Germans.

    There's a problem here. Cadillac really hasn't define what the hell kind of luxury brand they are. And this is something I've been stating for years. "What exactly are they?" What's the goal? The brand focus? Are they a luxury brand? A sport luxury brand? An attainable luxury brand? They have a multi-pronged approach that never works with customers because there is no real focus to the company and brand.

    We see where Cadillac is going with ATS. We can assume CTS will be similar. Then we can believe Omega will be more in line with the sport luxury segment. And if it's not, then Cadillac has a product development problem.


    A8 is the new "king" of the flagships. At least in the media's eye. Personally, I think the S still holds the crown. And I'm pretty sure you can bet the latest one will be a technical masterpiece.
    The A8 today is considered a technological achievement but it is certainly not considered to be class leading by any major automotive media. The truth is the A8 today as it always has is seen as an alternative to the S class, and 7 series at best and at worst a poor anonymous ( aesthetically) alternative. The S class is the standard by which all other cars in this class or judged, and quite frankly the A8 is not there as far as perception is concerned, and it simply is not as good as determined in many ways by the pricing in relation. It could also be argued that the XJ Super Sport is a direct competitor to the Audi S8 even though it is not an XJR.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    The A8 today is considered a technological achievement but it is certainly not considered to be class leading by any major automotive media. The truth is the A8 today as it always has is seen as an alternative to the S class, and 7 series at best and at worst a poor anonymous ( aesthetically) alternative. The S class is the standard by which all other cars in this class or judged, and quite frankly the A8 is not there as far as perception is concerned, and it simply is not as good as determined in many ways by the pricing in relation. It could also be argued that the XJ Super Sport is a direct competitor to the Audi S8 even though it is not an XJR.
    In the US, the A8 is seen as an alternative. Not so elsewhere -- for the most part anyways.
    I agree the S-Class is the standard. To be fair to the S-Class, it's also 5 years old and about to undergo a big overhaul.

    Audi's perception overall in the US isn't where it's supposed to be anyways. A lot of it stems from the 5000 debacle.

    Yes, I suppose the XJ SS could be seen as a direct competitor to the S8. I wonder how the XJ SS AWD fares against the S8 quattro. But they're all competitors to the S and 7.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by mgescuro View Post
    In the US, the A8 is seen as an alternative. Not so elsewhere -- for the most part anyways.
    I agree the S-Class is the standard. To be fair to the S-Class, it's also 5 years old and about to undergo a big overhaul.

    Audi's perception overall in the US isn't where it's supposed to be anyways. A lot of it stems from the 5000 debacle.

    Yes, I suppose the XJ SS could be seen as a direct competitor to the S8. I wonder how the XJ SS AWD fares against the S8 quattro. But they're all competitors to the S and 7.
    The biggest question is will the XJ SS variant also be available with AWD because it is already ahead of the Audi dynamically in many ways notwithstanding the launch traction advantage of AWD. The fact is in the US the S class is the de facto standard in this class, and even the 7 series which is seen by many as above the A8 pales in comparison to the S Klasse.

    The S Klasse is also priced far higher than the competition, and closer to ultra luxury cars like Bentley at the top of range which shows it's amazing reach even in the US. For me the A8 is nigh on anonymous, and an aesthetic shrinking violet notwithstanding it's interior, and quite exemplary optional LED lighting. I have no desire for a large luxury sedan with considerably less road presence than my Escalade, and quite frankly the XJ is the pick for me because it is so very expressive in every way.
    Last edited by germeezy1; 10-30-2012 at 04:24 PM.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    The biggest question is will the XJ SS variant also be available with AWD because it is already ahead of the Audi dynamically in many ways notwithstanding the launch traction advantage of AWD. The fact is in the US the S class is the de facto standard in this class, and even the 7 series which is seen by many as above the A8 pales in comparison to the S Klasse.

    The S Klasses is also priced far higher than the competition, and closer to ultra luxury cars like Bentley at the top of range which shows it's amazing reach even in the US. For me the A8 is nigh on anonymous, and an aesthetic shrinking violet notwithstanding it's interior, and quite exemplary optional LED lighting. I have no desire for a large luxury sedan with considerably less road presence than my Escalade, and quite frankly the XJ is the pick for me because it is so very expressive in every way.
    You're right. We don't know just yet if the XJSS will be available with AWD. I don't see why not though, but I guess there's a good possibility it won't be available.

    S-Class is the defacto standard because it's been around for far longer. And has managed to keep up it status, despite the number of challengers cropping up over the years.

    Even a base S-Class is priced $20K over an A8; it also reaches far higher than any of its competition. That's not to say a $160K+ XJ Ultimate doesn't reach high either. It's just a matter of being able to command the high price. I'm not sure even a Jaguar could command $180K+. (Yes, I know the C-X75 when it enters the market will be $1M, but that's an exception.)

    I do understand the idea of road presence as well.


    What Audi does excel in is providing a solid tangential competitor to the S-Class. I've made the argument before that there are no real competitors to the S-Class, merely tangential ones; this includes the 7-series.

    But this also provides a real problem for Cadillac Omega, assuming it does in fact exist. If Cadillac is aiming for the A8 or 7 as it's main competitor, they're not hitting the real target -- the S. If A8 and 7 aim for the S and end up short, Cadillac will end up being more short if Cadillac aims for the A8/7.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by mgescuro View Post
    You're right. We don't know just yet if the XJSS will be available with AWD. I don't see why not though, but I guess there's a good possibility it won't be available.

    S-Class is the defacto standard because it's been around for far longer. And has managed to keep up it status, despite the number of challengers cropping up over the years.

    Even a base S-Class is priced $20K over an A8; it also reaches far higher than any of its competition. That's not to say a $160K+ XJ Ultimate doesn't reach high either. It's just a matter of being able to command the high price. I'm not sure even a Jaguar could command $180K+. (Yes, I know the C-X75 when it enters the market will be $1M, but that's an exception.)

    I do understand the idea of road presence as well.


    What Audi does excel in is providing a solid tangential competitor to the S-Class. I've made the argument before that there are no real competitors to the S-Class, merely tangential ones; this includes the 7-series.

    But this also provides a real problem for Cadillac Omega, assuming it does in fact exist. If Cadillac is aiming for the A8 or 7 as it's main competitor, they're not hitting the real target -- the S. If A8 and 7 aim for the S and end up short, Cadillac will end up being more short if Cadillac aims for the A8/7.
    I believe the XJ to be more in the vein of Cadillac's current luxury sport ethos as far as dynamic prowress notwithstanding it's questionable ( compared to the S Klasse) low speed ride. Were I to be running Cadillac I would aim for no less than the XJ, and truly would aim for the S Klasse because as we both already agreed it is the de facto standard in this class. Vehicles like the Porsche Panamera , and Maserati Quattraporte can rival the S class in some ways as far as pricing but at this point they are seen as niche choices. Audi to me can be confusing because they in many ways defined the correct way to market a halo car with the R8, and yet the continue to falter in many ways with the A8. Although Audi is emphatically a member of the global luxury triumvirate it could be argued that it simply is not on the level of companies like MB, and BMW in the public's eye here.

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    Re: 2013 Audi S8: Faster Than All of You

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    I believe the XJ to be more in the vein of Cadillac's current luxury sport ethos as far as dynamic prowress notwithstanding it's questionable ( compared to the S Klasse) low speed ride. Were I to be running Cadillac I would aim for no less than the XJ, and truly would aim for the S Klasse because as we both already agreed it is the de facto standard in this class. Vehicles like the Porsche Panamera , and Maserati Quattraporte can rival the S class in some ways as far as pricing but at this point they are seen as niche choices. Audi to me can be confusing because they in many ways defined the correct way to market a halo car with the R8, and yet the continue to falter in many ways with the A8. Although Audi is emphatically a member of the global luxury triumvirate it could be argued that it simply is not on the level of companies like MB, and BMW in the public's eye here.
    XJ is probably closer to Cadillac's idea of a sport luxury car, especially now that Jaguar is going back to its roots as a sporting car manufacturer.
    XJ is also no slouch in the flagship class of cars either. And at this stage, unless I'm missing something, GM doesn't even have engines to match the XJ's complement -- including the new V6. And since the XJ is also the lightest car in the flagship class, it's not carrying around a load of fat to drag down.

    A Cadillac Panamera competitor can come later -- after Omega. Besides, isn't Panamera and A8/Flying Spur/ConGT merging into one platform developed by Porsche?

    What frustrates me with Audi is their "race to the bottom" with A1 and A3, which drives up their sales numbers. And is forcing Mercedes and BMW to counter. I don't like that. It's a compromise I feel they don't need to make. Mercedes is doing exceedingly well with the new C. And it looks like the new B will be agressive as well. But anything lower? Meh.


    Audi's time will come in the US, given about 5 years or so, assuming no major foul ups -- about 25 years since the 5000 mess.

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