What is Holden's New "Super Epsilon" platform

[MonaroSS]

What is Holden's New "Super Epsilon" platform?

(NSAP has been told it's a New FWD Statesman)

Leftlanenews.com's Drew Johnson has reported two stories 15 months apart but is there a connection he missed? And is the Holden involvement indicative of a deeper mystery?

Leftlanenews.com
by Drew Johnson 07/07/2009
Buick planning model expansion

Leftlanenews.com
by Drew Johnson 04/24/2008
Spied: GM begins testing turbo four-cylinder in large cars

Originally Posted by Leftlanenews.com 07/07/2009

On tap for 2012 will be a replacement for Buick’s again Lucerne. According to Motor Trend, the current Lucerne will continue through the 2010 model year before disappearing for 2011. The Lucerne will resurface for the 2012 model year, riding on a Holden-developed ‘Super’ Epsilon platform. The Super Epsilon platform will be longer and wider than the Epsilon platform underpinning the new LaCrosse, and should also offer the option for all-wheel drive.

Originally Posted by Leftlanenews.com 04/24/2008

According to a check of the prototype's license plate information, the car is registered to Saab and was built by Holden. The car is also listed as having a 260 hp engine four-cylinder — the type GM officials have hinted might show up in the Pontiac G8 and other large cars.

So those original spy pics reported by Leftlanenews.com 15 months ago seem now likely to be mules for this newly reported 'Super' Epsilon platform being developed by Holden. Holden is of course GM's specialist RWD engineering centre.

And what is more interesting is that the car in those spy pics could lift it's inside front wheel like only a RWD car can....



First RWD Impala spy pics?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by MotorTrend

http://www.motortrend.com/future/fut...sse_regal.html

2012 Lucerne Replacement

The 2010 model year will be Lucerne's last. Model year '11 will be an "interim" drop, with a replacement appearing for '12 on a new, large "Super" Epsilon front-wheel-drive platform GM Australia is developing to complement its heavy, rear-drive Zeta architecture. Australian Epsilon is wider and longer than the Epsilon II platform. The Zeta VE architecture -- Holden Commodore and ex-Pontiac G8 -- could carry through two more iterations. Australian Epsilon will cannibalize Commodore sales, but at least Holden can hold off Toyota with the new, large platform, which will likely be a 4WD car in Australia -- Holden reportedly wants to hedge its bets against losing the RWD performance and towing capacity that Commodore has.

MotorTrend.com. say AWD; which is going to make it very heavy. If, as they say, it cannibalizes Commodore production (both Australia and Mid East exports) then it weakens the case for any Commodore at all. And I don't see they need this to 'hold off Toyota' as Toyota doesn't even offer anything in OZ that effectively competes with Commodore size, let alone Statesman/Caprice.

If a Zeta II Commodore is too small to be stretched to make a LWB Statesman/Caprice, like the several previous models, then I wonder if such a Commodore is too narrow to be a real family car. Any car can have leg room added by a stretch; it would only be width that limits it's ability to be made into a Statesman/Caprice. If Commodore goes back to VB width then watch a repeat of the Commodore VB/Falcon XD loss of sales from Holden to Ford as families seek out family car size.

[MonaroSS]

It should be noted Bob Lutz back at Chrysler wanted to make their large platform a FWD/AWD/RWD platform, but the flexible manufacturing and computer controlled robot production systems needed did not exist back then to allow for such a flexible platform.

If GM has developed just such a platform, as I challenged Bob Lutz to do a few years back (add EPII front to Zeta rear), then any vehicle built on it could offer transverse engine placement for FWD and AWD and longitudinal engines for RWD. The pic below demonstrates how moving from a transverse to longitudinal layout can dramatically shift weight to the rear for better RWD characteristics than merely sending all power to the rear wheels of an AWD transverse setup.

[civilzues]

NSAP should be able to shed some light on this....

[A.J.]

While I don't think Holden can turn FWD into RWD, there is something they can do - tune an AWD system. If the car was exhibiting RWD-like behavior, it could be the AWD system.

Good study, Monaro. I can see something like this happening in the future - a platform that is both FWD- and RWD-capable (sort of)! The Cadillac EPII as well as the future supersized Buick could end up driving like RWD cars. We could be pleasantly surprised when we see reviews of the new Lacrosse...

[96_impala_ss]

Originally Posted by A.J.

While I don't think Holden can turn FWD into RWD, there is something they can do - tune an AWD system. If the car was exhibiting RWD-like behavior, it could be the AWD system.

Good study, Monaro. I can see something like this happening in the future - a platform that is both FWD- and RWD-capable (sort of)! The Cadillac EPII as well as the future supersized Buick could end up driving like RWD cars. We could be pleasantly surprised when we see reviews of the new Lacrosse...

I know a FWD car can be turned RWD (with proper mods, and some money) but sometimes the mods are more than what the car is worth. as far as a super flexible platform, doesnt Nissan have a platform that can do RWD and FWD at the same time?

All that needs to be done is choose how the car will sit?

[Bvonscott]

That looks to be an old spy pic of the new Lacrosse.
They may very well be developing a Super Epsilon... think Premium Epsilon. But I see nothing concrete here to say for sure...maybe if someone had the GMX code?

[FenwickHockey65]

It does appear to be a LaCrosse test mule...same proportions as the 2010 production model and everything...

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by 96_impala_ss

I know a FWD car can be turned RWD (with proper mods, and some money) but sometimes the mods are more than what the car is worth. as far as a super flexible platform, doesnt Nissan have a platform that can do RWD and FWD at the same time?

All that needs to be done is choose how the car will sit?

Nissan has the FMR (G, FX, etc...) and FLF/D (Altima, Murano, etc...) which are close in size, share their V-6 engines and other various parts... but are not the same platform. They're basically the equivlent of Sigma II and Epsilon II for GM.



As for MonaroSS's proposed solution to the "Super Epsilon", and be extension Zeta II, would be amazingly good, and would basically solve all of their large car problems, IF GM were to pull it off.

Also, there was a comment in the C&D article about the Cadillac 3-series fighter being Delta based, which would be a poor choice, to put it mildly, if they mean the current FWD Cruze platform (cough... Cimmaron... cough...). However: if Epsilon and Zeta/Sigma can be merged into a ANY-WD platform... what about "Alpha" and Delta??

Not to mention FWD and RWD VOLTEC variants...

Could GM's ~2012-2015 platform/car lineup start to look something like:

Delta III/Alpha: FWD Cruze/Volt, F/AWD Astra-Skylark, and R/AWD ATS-(Converj/3-series figher)

SWB Epsilon III/ZetaII/SigmaIII: FWD Malibu, RWD Camaro, F/AWD Insignia-Regal, AWD XTS

LWB Epsilon III/ZetaII/SigmaIII: FWD Impala, F/AWD Lacrosse, R/AWD Commadore, and R/AWD CTS

XLWB Epsilon III/ZetaII/SigmaIII: F/AWD Lesabre, R/AWD Statesman, and R/AWD FTS

That would be GM a lineup I could get behind, at least in terms of the overall platforms and most of the models (prices/market placement is another matter).

[nsap]

Originally Posted by civilzues

NSAP should be able to shed some light on this....

Super Epsilon II is under consideration for the next Statesman, that is why Holden is working on it. Buick would likely get the Statesman as a flagship sedan.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by nsap

Super Epsilon II is under consideration for the next Statesman, that is why Holden is working on it. Buick would likely get the Statesman as well as a flagship sedan.

Buick's getting both? I'd assume the Statesman would come over to replace the Lucerne and that would serve as Buick's flagship.

[nsap]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Buick's getting both? I'd assume the Statesman would come over to replace the Lucerne and that would serve as Buick's flagship.

No, just the Statesman. I apologize, my initial post was worded bad.

I'm still getting information on Super Epsilon, but that is what I can report as of now on it...

[civilzues]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Buick's getting both? I'd assume the Statesman would come over to replace the Lucerne and that would serve as Buick's flagship.

I think he is refering to the Statesman being Holden and Buicks flagship...
correct me if I am wrong

Originally Posted by nsap

No, just the Statesman. I apologize, my initial post was worded bad.

I'm still getting information on Super Epsilon, but that is what I can report as of now on it...

did you just find out about this?

[emh]

Originally Posted by CUtiger08

Also, there was a comment in the C&D article about the Cadillac 3-series fighter being Delta based, which would be a poor choice, to put it mildly, if they mean the current FWD Cruze platform (cough... Cimmaron... cough...). However: if Epsilon and Zeta/Sigma can be merged into a ANY-WD platform... what about "Alpha" and Delta??

What happened to the thread about that C&D article? It seems to have disappeared.

[nsap]

Originally Posted by civilzues

did you just find out about this?

I was told about Super Epsilon a couple weeks ago, then heard a bit more on it today from another source. I think it is one of those things that we have known about for a long while, we just didn't put the name "Super Epsilon" with the programs.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by Bvonscott

That looks to be an old spy pic of the new Lacrosse.
They may very well be developing a Super Epsilon... think Premium Epsilon. But I see nothing concrete here to say for sure...maybe if someone had the GMX code?

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

It does appear to be a LaCrosse test mule...same proportions as the 2010 production model and everything...

Yes that is the body of the LaCrosse, but according to it's paperwork it is built by Holden; yet Holden never engineered the LaCrosse. But remember with the flexible Zeta and EPII platforms that only the lengths of certain parts of the platform need be extended or shortened to provide a wide variety of sizes for different bodies.

Only with the old technology do you need to make a set sized mule platform and resize a fake body to fit. With these flexibly sizable platforms you can adjust the platform to fit under most fake bodies.

So if you are developing a 'Super Epsilon' you simply shorten those pieces so you can fit the LaCrosse body over it, as the bodies for the Super Epsilon would not have even been finalised at the time, and there you have your test mule to test the drivetrains and suspensions.

Manufacturers often put other bodies over their test mules.