Rumors & Rumblings: The future of RWD, small cars, compact SUVs-and Pontiac?-at GM

[jckjds]

GM's pissing and moaning about fuel economy regs is tiring. Those do not take full effect until 2010, giving GM a lot of time to develop fuel saving technologies like HCCI, DI, dual clutch transmissions, and e-flex. Those things are going to give a huge boost to gm's fuel economy numbers.

Furthermore, GM has a HUGE hole in its RWD lineup -- it has no 3 series sized cars. Only massive RWD cars. If GM was truly concerned about fuel economy, it would have built a small/midsize RWD platform, instead of a mid/large RWD platform. Sporty cars aren't supposed to be that big, anyway. IMO, if GM is going to do away with a RWD platform, it should finish alpha and ditch Zeta. Sigma can pick up large RWD in luxury cars.

Anyway, it seems to me that GM could easily meet CAFE by doing a few simple things that don't require ditching all of its best programs.

First, build cars that people will buy. The biggest drain on GM's cafe numbers is the fact that it sells a lot of trucks and BOF SUV's. There's nothing wrong with that, except that GM needs to refocus on cars that people want to buy to bring cars sales in line with a proper product mix.

Second, get E-flex out in as big a volume as possible. The cafe numbers on any eflex car should be astronomical. This will offset a lot of truck sales.

Make Pontiac a niche brand. Only RWD cars, and nothing else. Charge a premium price for the cars and plan accordingly. This will make the division profitable, but keep its sales numbers modest to limit CAFE impacts. Pontiac should have Solstice ($20-25K, an Alpha-based G6 ($22-28K), and a Zeta-based G8 ($27-35K). That's it. Offer a coupe version of the G6 and call it a Firebird. Offer a hi-Po coupe version of the G8 and call it a GTO. Everyone's happy. If Pontiac uses a few fuel saving technologies like DI and dual clutch transmissions, along with offering some turbo 4 versions of its smaller cars, then it should be able to achieve relatively good fuel economy numbers on it's own. It may not meet CAFE by itself, but that's okay -- it's the performance brand. Let Chevy, Saturn, and (maybe) Buick make up the difference.

Make Saturn and Saab the green brands (of course, Chevy as the volume leader and other brands will have some "green" products, but Saturn and Saab should be almost exclusively green products). Saturn should have hybrids and/or diesel options on every model. It should have a small car that gets class leading fuel economy, and how about a Prius-like car designed for the sole purpose of getting max fuel economy (with eflex, of course). Some people seem to like the bloated egg cars that get 50 mpg -- well how about a Saturn halo car that looks like and egg and has donuts for tires, but can go for, say, 100 miles without the engine kicking in? With incremental improvements in battery tech, it could be an electric-only vehicle within a couple of model runs.

Finally, ditch the compact BOF pickups and make unibody ones. Modern unibody SUV's can tow 5000-6000 lbs, which is plenty for a compact pickup. So, make a BOF compact/midsize pickup for those who want a bed, but don't need the heavy duty towing capabilities of full-sizers. But, make them get substantially better fuel economy than the full-sizers, or you are just wasting development dollars.

[megeebee]

Thank you so much for this very informative post. I say I must add my voice to yours as far as the RWD question is concerned. I wonder why it was abandoned wholesale. The platform is done, that money is spent, boosting smaller engines would, I think, compensate for the added weight of RWD mechanicals.

The Ultra V8 is something I get crabby about. As we all now know, the USA is NOT the world. If Cadillac, and GM as a whole, are to own any high ground in the minds of earthlings everywhere, offering what is among the finest V8's in the world would be a must. The pride of knowing it was designed and built here in the US would, I think, be worth the price. Russia, China, The Mid-East would be markets for at least a few thousand every year. And if circumstances allow, the American home market. The engine is finished and ready to go. "Wrapped up in a bow" and GM Powertrains' Tom Stephens has said. If the money has been spent and the factory prepared, then why not?

[Cortazzo]

If Pontiac goes towards smaller, light AWD cars i'd be pretty happy with that. It looks like these RWD cars would be out of my price range anyway (referencing camaro's higher costs and lower production). As long as it handles well and hopefully has a 6-speed option and is reliable, i've got not qualms if its FWD.

[suburbanfoo]

No RWD Impala=GM shoots itself in the foot!!

[Lichtronamo]

The new CAFE regulations mean there is no space in the GM family for Pontiac. Why make a series of 4 and 6 cylinder, FWD/AWD products that trample all over existing Chevy and Saturn products. Cutting Pontiac would allow GM the opportunity to rationalize Saturn's existence, which in light of the Malibu and Traverse, is questionable at best. Expanding the number of Buick and GMC products to include smaller Delta II and/or Theta II products will ensure adequate sales volume for the combined sales channel

[ChevyRules]

I wonder how a used G8 will go for when I need a new car. Will be the last Pontiac ever made.

RIP Pontiac.

[ctaylorzl1]

All this is sad, as it probably the end for Pontiac. I was really hoping that Pontiac would be GM performance/fun brand, as GM really has no fun cars that are resaonably priced. I expect cars to pretty much be only transportation devices here in the near future. Even in lite of the new CAFE regs. I think GM could still do what they want with Pontiac ans still meet the regulations. But hey if GM wants to meet CAFE regs with cars that have no "enthusiasm", that is their choice.

[Maetrix66]

I think everyone here (except the naysayers) can see that if GM is serious about making Pontiac a niche brand, then they need to let them have the aspirational product that they need to increase profit margin. My main concern with Pontiac becoming a niche brand is how GM is going to tolerate the reduced sales. I mean, it's not like Saturn, where GM can lose the sales without a gigantic hangover. Pontiac is a huge part of GM's domestic sales figures. I would like for Lutz to publicly aknowledge what the hell his image for Pontiac is to be. I don't care how many cylinders that the engines have, I don't care for fwd in my performance cars, but a well designed fwd performance car could work, as well there are some RWD and AWD options. The EVO is a perfect example of what can be done with a 4cyl performance vehicle. It has 4cyl, turbo, AWD, and very fast for it's power rating.

I have to question the hypocracy of saying that they want to go to AWD to increase fuel mileage, though.

[Geotpf]

Originally Posted by skylark68

Can Buick/GMC dealers survive without Pontiac? Pontiac is the entry level brand for those dealers and I don't see them doing too well without those sales. I know people on this board complain about the G5, G6, and Vibe, but I see them all over the place. I doubt Pontiac is going to be killed off, but will survive as a Chevrolet alternative as it has been for a couple of decades. I don't see RWD exclusives as was forecast pre-CAFE. I do still see a reason for a Firebird to exist though. It's cheap, easy, and a minimal investment to get it in the hands of the dealers. And, it's a Chevrolet alternative for those that don't buy Chevy's. There are still plenty of folks out there that love GM but wouldn't buy a Chevy. I'm guilty of this. I'd rather have the Pontiac, GMC, or Buick alternative to a Chevy almost any day.

It's possible the plan is to kill Buick, GMC, and Pontiac at the same time (2013 from the look of this post). It doesn't make any sense at all to kill only one of the three, because their dealer networks are so intertwined. Either they all stay, or they all go.

As for brands to kill, Saturn makes the most sense to go first. It got all new product recently, and everything bombed. Interestingly, the Vue did quite well in January-we'll see if that's a long term trend or just a one month thing (fleet sales?). But everything else is selling poorly, including the Astra, which only sold 215 units (in a partial month, but still...).

Hummer and Saab (domestically, at least) also have to be on the hit list before Pontiac.

[mbukukanyau]

No mention of volt or Hydrogen
Horsieron, what do you think will happen?

[FenwickHockey65]

On the Impala...
As many GMI members have said, the general public doesn't care if its FWD or RWD. They probably don't even know. All they're looking for is a good looking car with good fuel economy and reasonable power, a balance of all the element that go into car production. They don't care what wheels spin. Only serious car buyers (or us here on GMI) would think twice before buying a FWD Impala.
This is just me, but if I need a full size sedan and the Impala is still FWD, my loyalty to GM will still pull through.

[GMT2006]

Screw the rwd vs. fwd vs. awd crap...make Pontiac a Mazda fighter...all of Mazda's cars are fwd and the reviews always say how sporty and fun to drive they are...why can't GM do the same for Pontiac???

[Ambalanche]

I don't believe Oshuwa will be building the Camaro by itself. They may build the Denali concept truck there, but if that's the case, it's Zeta and trucks and cars all will be averaged in the same Cafe standards so that really doesn't make sense either. The CAW may want to give GM some super good concessions otherwise I can see GM closing that plant since it's not cheaper to build in Canada anymore. They can strike all they want, but GM doesn't NEED the Camaro so I don't believe that would give them any leverage.
Personally, I still don't understand why FWD is so superior to RWD as far as MPG. And why would GM let Ford have the market AGAIN?? There has to be more here that we're not seeing/your insiders are telling, or maybe they just don't know either.

To me RWD just feels better, plus I like a little room in the front fender behind the front wheel and before the door!

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by Maetrix66

I mean, it's not like Saturn, where GM can lose the sales without a gigantic hangover. Pontiac is a huge part of GM's domestic sales figures.

2007 sales:

Pontiac: 358,022 (-12.7%)
Saturn: 240,091 (+6.1%)

My guess is that the numbers would be much closer if you took out fleet sales when you consider that the fleet mainstays G6 and GP are approximately 238,000 of Pontiac's total units in 2007. Closing Pontiac is made easier by the consolidation of the P-B-G stores, whereas all of the Saturn stores are stand alone outlets raising the costs significantly. I would also guess that GM's market research shows Saturn to have a stronger brand image than Pontiac does with general consumers looking for an appliance.

[The Law]

Pontiac isn't going anywhere.Gm needs them to off load some stuff mainly GM-Daewoo that use to sell under Suzuki.Of course, they wont be as bad as the Daewoo's that Suzuki had has GM gas investment a great deal of money into them.

1: Pontiac G4/G5 Sedan FWD,Come 2010-2011 (January 2011), the Daewoo Tosca/Chevrolet Epica and Chevrolet Malibu will be “merged” on the EpsilonII platform. ( The Pontiac G5 ends production in 2009/2010 time-frame)


2: Pontiac G2 Beat, Gamma II built along side Corsa and Aveo.

3: Firebird coupe- Alpha RWD built along side, Saab Sonnet (AWD)& stretched Alpha :Buick Riviera

4: Buick Lucerne Sedan, which will replace the Park Avenue is China.
Originally the plan was to switch the vehicle to the VE/Zeta platform (the Elizabeth Australia plant.vs. Oshawa car Assembly) to build these products for some world markets.?

5:Future Pontiac G8 and Zeta Impala will be built in Elizabeth or Oshawa along side Lucerne for World Market.


At least this is what a believe will happen.Doesn't mention Saab 9-1 (Delta II), 9-2x ?(Delta II 4x4), 9-3 (EII),9-5(stretched EII)?