Rumors & Rumblings: The future of RWD, small cars, compact SUVs-and Pontiac?-at GM

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by FierySolstice

First off, I don't think Pontiac is GM's Mercury as someone said earlier. Pontiac has much more potential. I think GM should eliminate Buick rather than Pontiac if they had to get rid of one brand. It would be much easier to remove 3 vehicles from the B-P-G dealers than Pontiac. The Enclave could just be elminated since you have the Acadia/Outlook/Traverse. The Outlook could just go upmarket. The G8 takes over for the Lucerne and a new G6 could take over for the LaCrosse. Plus Pontiac has more potential to have more vehicles than Buick. Once the Enclave craze is over, everyone will go back not to care about Buick anymore. Also Pontiac fills a much needed void between Chevy and Saturn. The give the customer a vehicle that is a little more sport inspired than Chevy, but not so technical as the Saturns. Chevys and Saturns are good cars, but they aren't Pontiacs. When I think of Pontiac, I think good American sport cars and sport sedans. Right now I drive an Aura, but I had a G6, and I kind of miss it. It different in a way I can't explain. If GM gave Pontiac the midsize it deserves, I'm sure it would wind NACOTY just as the Aura and Malibu did. Buick really don't nothing for me. Not the Velitte nor Bengal could persuade me to buy the car. I'm pretty sure everyone around my age and even younger would think the same thing. You can say over and over again its not your father's Buick, but in the end, its still a Buick. B for boring..

Buick is NOT going away because of China. Second, Buick sells at a price ABOVE Chevrolet and Saturn. This should mean greater profit per unit. The last thing GM needs is to squeeze more product into the middle of the market causing Chevrolet and Saturn to be lost in the shuffle.

"but they aren't Pontiacs." - what exactly is a Pontiac? Whatever people here seem to think it is, Pontiac hasn't been it for 30 years. Most consumers (except fleet buyers apparently) have written the brand off for dead a long time ago.

I liked the idea of a Pontiac focused on a rear wheel drive performance niche. It seems with the CAFE standards and GM's ongoing cash crunch that such a line up isn't going to happen. So, expect to see over the remaining life of the current vehicles product shifted from Pontiac to Buick or GMC to add volume to those brands so that Pontiac fades away. Epsilon II and Zeta sedan go to Buick as the LaCrosse and Park Avenue/Lucerne, the Torrent becomes the Terrain, the Delta II becomes the rumored Skylark. GMC gets a Zeta uni-body truck like the Denali XT. Solstice goes away leaving the Sky at Saturn and the Vibe expires with the NUMMI agreement. B-G dealers are left with a full range of product within the two brands.

[FierySolstice]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

Buick is NOT going away because of China. Second, Buick sells at a price ABOVE Chevrolet and Saturn. This should mean greater profit per unit. The last thing GM needs is to squeeze more product into the middle of the market causing Chevrolet and Saturn to be lost in the shuffle.

"but they aren't Pontiacs." - what exactly is a Pontiac? Whatever people here seem to think it is, Pontiac hasn't been it for 30 years. Most consumers (except fleet buyers apparently) have written the brand off for dead a long time ago.

I liked the idea of a Pontiac focused on a rear wheel drive performance niche. It seems with the CAFE standards and GM's ongoing cash crunch that such a line up isn't going to happen. So, expect to see over the remaining life of the current vehicles product shifted from Pontiac to Buick or GMC to add volume to those brands so that Pontiac fades away. Epsilon II and Zeta sedan go to Buick as the LaCrosse and Park Avenue/Lucerne, the Torrent becomes the Terrain, the Delta II becomes the rumored Skylark. GMC gets a Zeta uni-body truck like the Denali XT. Solstice goes away leaving the Sky at Saturn and the Vibe expires with the NUMMI agreement. B-G dealers are left with a full range of product within the two brands.

Ok fine, then kill Buick North America. There is no need for them here. The older generations are dying off and I know my parents generation will not buy them and I definitely know mine won't either! I'd rather go for Caddy then Buick anyday! You say that Pontiac vehicles can be easily absorbed into the other brands, so can Buick's. LaCrosse buyers can go to Malibu/Aura/G6/9-3, Lucerne buyers can go to Impala/CTS/G8/9-5 and Enclave buyers can go to Acadia/Outlook/Traverse.
I know Pontiac hasn't lived up to its rep in a long time, but they do have the potential to. The Saturn Red Lines and Chevy SS's have no where near the style that Pontiac's do. I'm sorry, but they are still Saturns and Chevys. Might as well get the base model. I believe the BPG dealerships would cry if they get rid of Pontiac because they are their entry brand. Pontiac gets them into the dealship. Oh and btw, I see a lot more new Pontiac's on the road than any of the new Buicks..

[Tone]

I've said this before, but its relevant here: if GM is to keep its brands, it needs to think about who each brand targets and (and this is the most important part) how to move them up.

To me, GM has a group of obvious mass market/luxury market brands that could easily be adjusted to target specfic audiences and give them a natural path up as they earn more and want a nicer car. Unfortunately, these pairings don't match how GM actually markets or sells their cars now:

Traditional/conservative (emphasis on value, reliability and clean, understated styling)

Chevrolet (mass market) --> Buick (upmarket)

Brash/edgy (empahsis on driving dynamics, fashionable styling and cutting-edge technology)

Pontiac (mass market) ---> Cadillac (upmarket)

Euro/Alternative (smaller, tighter handling, emphasis on small engines, turbos, diesels, etc)

Saturn (mass market) --> Saab (upmarket)

Trucks/offroad (tough and tougher)

GMC (mass market) ---> Hummer (upmarket)

To me, this identifies a brand character (and distinct target markets, admittedly with some overlap) as a basis to build different vehicles on common platforms. Moreover, it gives each mass market brand a logical upmarket sibling.

The trouble here is that this relies on grouping the brand pairings at the dealer level (so that if I was really happy with my Impala and I'm ready to move up, I can go to the same store and look at a Buick). That would involve a lot of work, which is probably why GM is taking a much more conservative approach.

But, I think this would make better use of the exisiting brands and (to get back on topic) give Pontiac a direction that would be distinct from Chevy, yet still mass market. And it would give GM's upmarket brands far more room to offer a fuller line (Buick and Saab would have to introduce more uplevel offerings in this scenerio) without stepping on each other's markets.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by Tone

Chevrolet (mass market) --> Buick (upmarket)

Pontiac (mass market) ---> Cadillac (upmarket)

Saturn (mass market) --> Saab (upmarket)

GMC (mass market) ---> Hummer (upmarket)

I came up with this very idea some time ago, but the Pontiac-Caddy just didn't seem to fit quite right, so I scuttled it. But you know this scenario makes just as much sense as any other.

Maybe it's just me, but we've all come up with dozens of brand combinations on here, and frankly, NONE of them seem to fit any better than the other!

[Geotpf]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

You are aware that GMC is the NUMBER TWO selling brand in North America within GM. Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Buick where not proping up GMC dealers, the dealers had those car brands so that they had something else other than trucks. GMC has been and will continue to be the volume of that channel.

Exactly what I said. Pontiac exists so GMC dealers can sell some cars on the side. It's a little different than Lincoln/Mercury, in that a GMC truck dealer would survive without Pontiac, but why take cars away from them?

[ARCANGEL]

pontiac is a shell of itself and seriously is not even comsidered by most people they kinda forget it's even there. maybe it should go away along with GMC another redundant brand!! then they can turn the dealers into Saturn buick and make them a little upscale. then the hierchy can go like this:

Chevy- toyota, nissan, honda fighter ( Full line)

Saturn, buick- Saturn a VW fighter, Buick Lexus

Cadillac, Saab, Hummer- Cadillac BMW, Mercades fighter, SAAB an Audi fighter, Hummer, JEEP, Land Rover

[ericmvest]

Originally Posted by Tone

I've said this before, but its relevant here: if GM is to keep its brands, it needs to think about who each brand targets and (and this is the most important part) how to move them up.

To me, GM has a group of obvious mass market/luxury market brands that could easily be adjusted to target specfic audiences and give them a natural path up as they earn more and want a nicer car. Unfortunately, these pairings don't match how GM actually markets or sells their cars now:

Traditional/conservative (emphasis on value, reliability and clean, understated styling)

Chevrolet (mass market) --> Buick (upmarket)

Brash/edgy (empahsis on driving dynamics, fashionable styling and cutting-edge technology)

Pontiac (mass market) ---> Cadillac (upmarket)

Euro/Alternative (smaller, tighter handling, emphasis on small engines, turbos, diesels, etc)

Saturn (mass market) --> Saab (upmarket)

Trucks/offroad (tough and tougher)

GMC (mass market) ---> Hummer (upmarket)

To me, this identifies a brand character (and distinct target markets, admittedly with some overlap) as a basis to build different vehicles on common platforms. Moreover, it gives each mass market brand a logical upmarket sibling.

The trouble here is that this relies on grouping the brand pairings at the dealer level (so that if I was really happy with my Impala and I'm ready to move up, I can go to the same store and look at a Buick). That would involve a lot of work, which is probably why GM is taking a much more conservative approach.

But, I think this would make better use of the exisiting brands and (to get back on topic) give Pontiac a direction that would be distinct from Chevy, yet still mass market. And it would give GM's upmarket brands far more room to offer a fuller line (Buick and Saab would have to introduce more uplevel offerings in this scenerio) without stepping on each other's markets.

I agree with your post 100%. Pontiac should be General Motors affordable RWD division. They could use less expensive versions of Cadillac's RWD platforms. This would help amortized design, development, and tooling costs over more units and make Cadillac potentially more profitable. Also, it would make the Pontiac, Buick, GMC Truck sales channel more viable. Entry level RWD cars, premium FWD cars, and a full truck line should make Pontiac, Buick, GMC Truck a strong marketing channel. Revitalizing Pontiac will improve General Motors' image. Killing Pontiac or letting it languish will hurt General Motors image as much, if not more, than what happened to Oldsmobile.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by ericmvest

Pontiac should be General Motors affordable RWD division.

GM doesn't have the cash anymore to develop a range of affordable RWD vehicles while addressing CAFE through the rest of the vehicle portfolio. All the passenger cars are going to require major improvements in MPG in order to earn enough credits to sustain the full size SUVs and pickups that are GM's primary source of gross and net revenue.

[hotrod747]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

GM doesn't have the cash anymore to develop a range of affordable RWD vehicles while addressing CAFE through the rest of the vehicle portfolio. All the passenger cars are going to require major improvements in MPG in order to earn enough credits to sustain the full size SUVs and pickups that are GM's primary source of gross and net revenue.

This is yet something else to understand. Consumer aren't flocking to the car lots in droves to purchase full size suvs and p/u in light of high petrol prices. Thus banking on them as a primary source of revenue is a mistake itself.

[S1L1SC]

Here is the thing about GM - They seem to have a lot of nice concept vehicles, then they botch things before those ever get to market.

Currently GM only has three brands I would even consider owning: Cadillac, Pontiac and SAAB.

As far as I am aware of, SAAB isn't offering AWD, so there goes any interest in their current lineup (i'm include them because they have a wagon...[I don't like SUV's] but I want RWD for performance reasons.)

Cadillac doesn't have a wagon, but at least the cars are RWD - prices are a bit high for my taste.

Pontiac is not get the Sportswagon. go figure. Prices are more in line with I would pay though. So it looks like I will be getting a G8 in a year or two.

If GM kills Pontiac they will have one brand that offers RWD vehicles - Cadillac. (excluding the Camaro & Corvette)

At that point it makes financial sense to cross-shop the European brands, such as BMW, Mercedes & Audi (all of which offer a RWD or AWD wagon(s)). Needless to say which way my purchase decision will go in that case.

As for fuel consumption - maybe offering more engine choices would be a good thing. A diesel engine for example would help.

Maybe I should look at what it would take to get a Holden speced to my liking and imported to the US since GM seems to be unable to get their act together.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by S1L1SC

Here is the thing about GM - They seem to have a lot of nice concept vehicles, then they botch things before those ever get to market.

Currently GM only has three brands I would even consider owning: Cadillac, Pontiac and SAAB.

As far as I am aware of, SAAB isn't offering AWD, so there goes any interest in their current lineup (i'm include them because they have a wagon...[I don't like SUV's] but I want RWD for performance reasons.)

Cadillac doesn't have a wagon, but at least the cars are RWD - prices are a bit high for my taste.

Pontiac is not get the Sportswagon. go figure. Prices are more in line with I would pay though. So it looks like I will be getting a G8 in a year or two.

If GM kills Pontiac they will have one brand that offers RWD vehicles - Cadillac. (excluding the Camaro & Corvette)

At that point it makes financial sense to cross-shop the European brands, such as BMW, Mercedes & Audi (all of which offer a RWD or AWD wagon(s)). Needless to say which way my purchase decision will go in that case.

As for fuel consumption - maybe offering more engine choices would be a good thing. A diesel engine for example would help.

Maybe I should look at what it would take to get a Holden speced to my liking and imported to the US since GM seems to be unable to get their act together.

Saab is offering a new sophisticated AWD system on the 9-3.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by FierySolstice

Ok fine, then kill Buick North America.

The point is that it doesn't cost GM a whole lot to make NA Buicks because they'll all be existing products sold in China. OTOH, Pontiac would be a whole lot of investment to make a distinctive line up.

Buick will be getting more product like Delta II to stretch down to the lower priced market segments and the Terrain will carry the affordable Theta based CUV for the BG minus P stores.

All those new Pontiacs you see are rentals. In 2007, the GP and G6 accounted for 84.3 percent of the sales of the GP, G6, G5, Vibe and Solstice which will soon be the only Pontiac products. The GP and G6 sales were 51.5 percent fleet sales. Subtract the 87,622 GP sales and add back 50,000 G8 sales with only 15 percent fleets and the total volume is roughly 240000 units. The G6 is going to increase in fleet sales as there are no major updates planned until 2012 if at all, the rose is off the Solstice and the G5 never did smell good. So, even with the G8 and a new Vibe, I'd expect Pontiac sales to continue to delcline and they certainly aren't going to make money off of these cars given the exchange rate with AU and combination of incentives/fleet sales required to achieve any kind of volume on the G6 and G5.

Revitializing Pontaic would be a black hole for money GM doesn't have in the first place. Along with selling evey "non-core" asset they had, the need to focus their turnaround efforts on developing and marketing the volume products in the core brands. Those are Chevrolet and Cadillac. Sales from Opels badged as Saturns or Chinese Buicks sold here is an extra bonus both for the off-shore operation as well as GMNA.

[AMcA]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

The point is that it doesn't cost GM a whole lot to make NA Buicks because they'll all be existing products sold in China. OTOH, Pontiac would be a whole lot of investment to make a distinctive line up.

Buick will be getting more product like Delta II to stretch down to the lower priced market segments and the Terrain will carry the affordable Theta based CUV for the BG minus P stores.

All those new Pontiacs you see are rentals. In 2007, the GP and G6 accounted for 84.3 percent of the sales of the GP, G6, G5, Vibe and Solstice which will soon be the only Pontiac products. The GP and G6 sales were 51.5 percent fleet sales. Subtract the 87,622 GP sales and add back 50,000 G8 sales with only 15 percent fleets and the total volume is roughly 240000 units. The G6 is going to increase in fleet sales as there are no major updates planned until 2012 if at all, the rose is off the Solstice and the G5 never did smell good. So, even with the G8 and a new Vibe, I'd expect Pontiac sales to continue to delcline and they certainly aren't going to make money off of these cars given the exchange rate with AU and combination of incentives/fleet sales required to achieve any kind of volume on the G6 and G5.

Revitializing Pontaic would be a black hole for money GM doesn't have in the first place. Along with selling evey "non-core" asset they had, the need to focus their turnaround efforts on developing and marketing the volume products in the core brands. Those are Chevrolet and Cadillac. Sales from Opels badged as Saturns or Chinese Buicks sold here is an extra bonus both for the off-shore operation as well as GMNA.

Exactly. As Oldsmobile goes, so will go Pontiac, sad to say.

Put it this way: if you had a couple billion dollars -- because that's what it will cost, at a minimum -- would you put it toward the risky proposition of saving a brand that's an also- also-ran in the most competitive marketplace in the world? I didn't think you would, either.

I blame Roger Smith.

[FierySolstice]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

The point is that it doesn't cost GM a whole lot to make NA Buicks because they'll all be existing products sold in China. OTOH, Pontiac would be a whole lot of investment to make a distinctive line up.

Buick will be getting more product like Delta II to stretch down to the lower priced market segments and the Terrain will carry the affordable Theta based CUV for the BG minus P stores.

All those new Pontiacs you see are rentals. In 2007, the GP and G6 accounted for 84.3 percent of the sales of the GP, G6, G5, Vibe and Solstice which will soon be the only Pontiac products. The GP and G6 sales were 51.5 percent fleet sales. Subtract the 87,622 GP sales and add back 50,000 G8 sales with only 15 percent fleets and the total volume is roughly 240000 units. The G6 is going to increase in fleet sales as there are no major updates planned until 2012 if at all, the rose is off the Solstice and the G5 never did smell good. So, even with the G8 and a new Vibe, I'd expect Pontiac sales to continue to delcline and they certainly aren't going to make money off of these cars given the exchange rate with AU and combination of incentives/fleet sales required to achieve any kind of volume on the G6 and G5.

Revitializing Pontaic would be a black hole for money GM doesn't have in the first place. Along with selling evey "non-core" asset they had, the need to focus their turnaround efforts on developing and marketing the volume products in the core brands. Those are Chevrolet and Cadillac. Sales from Opels badged as Saturns or Chinese Buicks sold here is an extra bonus both for the off-shore operation as well as GMNA.

First off, they weren't all rentals. Saturns and Buicks are also rented. My point is, that Buick and Saturn essentially go after the same kind of customer, one that wants refinement a little more of the extras. Buick and Saturn tread into each other territory most of the time. For me, I would go for the Saturn, my grandparents have the Lacrosse, my parents and I have Saturns (and I only have one because I had to get one). Pontiacs can go after the younger generations that want that fun and excitement now before they grow up and want all those extras that Saturn offers. Sure the Enclave's styling is nice, but I'd rather go for the Acadia or Outlook then the Buick, its just a little too over the top. And if I wanted to go that high in price, I'd go for a Cadillac. Sure they might be less expensive to make since they are produced for China, but Buick NA is not really needed at all. A step up from Chevy is.. thus why you need Pontiac.

[FierySolstice]

Originally Posted by t-rex

I came up with this very idea some time ago, but the Pontiac-Caddy just didn't seem to fit quite right, so I scuttled it. But you know this scenario makes just as much sense as any other.

Maybe it's just me, but we've all come up with dozens of brand combinations on here, and frankly, NONE of them seem to fit any better than the other!

I agree with this whole scenario, but only if you make both RWD. It would be a good fit to make the platform more profitable to produce.