Rumor: Caddy Volt??

[vcs2600]

GM already shares powertrains everywhere, so I don't know what you guys were expecting.

It will be interesting to see if they can gin up a more 'high performance' version of E-Flex -- that could have a lot of potential applications at GM.

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by blkwrxsti

I agree with you that badge engineering is a dead end, but three things in your post bothered me:

The assumption that Cadillacs should always be BIG. That's what got Cadillac to where it is, change or die - as they say. This thing will be exclusive, very quiet, and the owner will never have to touch a gas pump. That's the sweetspot of Luxury now, not having 2.5 tons of steel around you. Your reference to the Alpha is already a good example of this trend, as is the Audi line, the expected Lexus Prius, etc.

The implication that GM should seek to hide the Volt from perfectionists, because then the initial car would be more of a success (maybe, but it would be at the expense of improving the car and potentially increasing their first-mover advantage). I also don't buy the idea that people buying the first electric vehicle will not be demanding, just because they're buying it from Chevy - and Chevy is not as well equipped to deal with them.

Giving a tech laden car to Buick? Once volumes get up there and the Chinese demand Volts, then give it to Buick, otherwise this is a recipe for failure. The simple act of calling this car a Buick will take it off most people's shopping lists. The tech-savvy bleeding-edge crowd won't be caught dead driving a Buick, while the typical Buick owner would worry that the high voltage electronics could short out his pacemaker, or try to put gas in the battery port...

Mid Week salutations blkwrxsti:

What you may have overlooked in the first paragraph is: The Volt Cadillac must be seen as a New Cadillac, not a smaller Cadillac!

When I travel, or have visited other countries on business, and when mostly men start talking about other things, a lot of questions like: What kind of car do you drive?...comes up. I own 2 Cadillacs and a Land Rover. The LR is known to most, but when I mention Cadillacs, smiles arise and they think it's a "Land Yacht." When I show them what the 2006 STS looks like, they can't believe it's a Cadillac. What I am describing is perceptions, this is why friends and non-enthusiast other drivers, have no idea of Cadillac!

In the past 10 or so years, the advertising budget of Cadillac has been slashed so much that the only Cadillac internationally known is the Escalade! Btw, if you already didn't know, the Escalade is very, very, large and in charge!

To sell anything, you must create excitement, desire, sexuality, and then you have something to sell. This is one of the reasons the BLS flopped in Europe, no legendary association, no perceived heritage...among other issues. Cadillac would have been better to attempt to sell the DTS, most europeans would have immediately recognized it as a Cadillac, and those who wanted to be noticed, would have bought them!

Back to the topic: Cadillac has not been at the forefront of automotive technology for a long time. Before offering something like a Volt Premium, it most be tested and trouble free this is not going to be a low cost, discounted item. As a premium priced, exclusive, item, it has to be right the first time. Cadillac made steps with the introduction of the CTS, but missed it in some areas: packaging, engine availability, and luxury features such as Magnetic Ride Control. As a lone soldier (CTS), should have covered all areas to insure a major victory. (BTW, the major problem for me is headroom the 2008 MB C Class doesn't have that problem).

Finishing up: The main reason for having Buick introduce the Volt, is because of the price: By the time Volt comes to market adjusted for inflation it should sell for $44,500. This is too expensive for Chevrolet, as Chevy has been marketed as an entry level, heavily discounted product. Do you now understand what this new innovation will have to endure, to succeed? Buick is selling new Enclaves, with no problem and they can run a lot over $45K.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

Finishing up: The main reason for having Buick introduce the Volt, is because of the price: By the time Volt comes to market adjusted for inflation it should sell for $44,500. This is too expensive for Chevrolet, as Chevy has been marketed as an entry level, heavily discounted product. Do you now understand what this new innovation will have to endure, to succeed? Buick is selling new Enclaves, with no problem and they can run a lot over $45K.

Whatever which way you come up with these numbers is beyond me. There has been no mention in price publicly and the only mention in price was several months ago, to which should not be any sort of indication to a price in the future. Especially with the possibility of reducing battery costs and even other materials. Selling this as a Buick still makes no sense when the backbone of GM is Chevrolet and Cadillac. Cadillac will have far better success at achieve such sales due to possibility of added technology and from what I have seen would not at all suit a Buick.

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by uboys

It won't be a "rebadge"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Have you not been following GM over the last 7 years Lutz has been here?!!!

Uboy:

You've got to do something to control your blood pressure, or you'll be in a wheelchair before the car debuts!

I'll answer and I'll try not to scream! My family has purchased GM cars for over 60 years, in fact my late Dad, worked at a Chevrolet Dealership (in the 50's). I have been acquainted with Robert "Bob" Lutz's accomplishments for decades.

I simply wanted to ask for "No Re-badges." I didn't state they would be re-badges. I am not in a GM facility or a member of the GM Board, or engineering staff. I am a consumer with GM experience, and my personal preferences.

I have a question about your first question on the 7 years of Bob Lutz reign:

1. Was not the Buick Lucerne a rebadge of the Cadillac DTS?

2. Was not the Saturn Sky as rebadge of the Pontiac Solstice?

3. Was not the Chevrolet Tahoe, later rebadged as a GMC, and finally the Cadillac Escalade?

And didn't this occur within the last 7 years?

[fp115]

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

I have a question about your first question on the 7 years of Bob Lutz reign:

1. Was not the Buick Lucerne a rebadge of the Cadillac DTS?

2. Was not the Saturn Sky as rebadge of the Pontiac Solstice?

3. Was not the Chevrolet Tahoe, later rebadged as a GMC, and finally the Cadillac Escalade?

And didn't this occur within the last 7 years?

I can't see how any of those except for 3 are rebadges. However if you've driven or even been into an Escalade you will see the difference between it and a Tahoe is huge. The only rebadges you named are Tahoe and Yukon.

A rebadge is when you simply swap the badge for one of another vehicle. Take the Trailblazer, Envoy for instance. The G5 and the Cobalt. Those are some, not the ones you named, especially when they have dramatic changes within the engines, suspension, all around looks, ride and feel and even options.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by fp115

Selling this as a Buick still makes no sense when the backbone of GM is Chevrolet and Cadillac. Cadillac will have far better success at achieve such sales due to possibility of added technology and from what I have seen would not at all suit a Buick.

The backbone of GM is Chevrolet... Cadillac has one car that sells...

Cadillac is not a backbone... It has been so bled of decent product its not even a single vertebrae.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

I have a question about your first question on the 7 years of Bob Lutz reign:

1. Was not the Buick Lucerne a re-badge of the Cadillac DTS?

Not really, it was a "continuation" of the 1998-2004 Seville.. Same dash, similar interior, Northstar Power...etc etc... As far as I can tell the Buick has cooled seats... and heated wiper squirters... Other then that... its a rebage of a car that GM killed...

and BTW To Mr. Lutz... The Buick which rides on a platform that dates back to 1992 OUTSELLS the one you PERSONALLY designed in 2005... Get off of your butt and fix the new STS... You broke it, go fix it!

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

2. Was not the Saturn Sky as re-badge of the Pontiac Solstice?

TOTALLY

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

3. Was not the Chevrolet Tahoe, later re-badged as a GMC, and finally the Cadillac Escalade?

And didn't this occur within the last 7 years?

Go drive a new Denali and then a Escalade... They even smell the same inside...

Bob Lutz PROMISED us NO MORE re-badges... And yet EVERY Saturn is a Re-badge and EVERY Pontiac (save one) is a Re-badge...

Rather then fix this mistake... Now we get word from GM that if you can't transfer the headlight assembly from a Sky to a Solstice they aren't re-badges...

PLEASE... People AREN'T that stupid.

[zete]

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

WILL GM EVER LEARN? RE-BADGING THE VOLT TO ALL DIVISIONS!

Seems a lot of folks confuse GM -- and Lutz's -- comments that the E-Flex power train will be shared across all GM brands -- with the Volt being but a single instantiation of the power train.

The Provoq was obviously an E-Flex mule. And I can see the next gen DTS/STS -- when it finally arrives -- as being E-Flex. The larger vehicles may even be able to get longer driving ranges as they can pack in more batteries. Plus, GM can charge way more for a Buick or Cadillac with E-Flex than for a Chevrolet.

Imagine, and wouldn't it be sweet to have GM produce an E-Flex ULS (DTS/STS combo) that can go 100 miles / 160km on a charge! And don't you think a lot of very wealthy folks would opt for an E-Flex Cadillac over, say, a 7 series or Mercedes S-class diesel?

And who's to say it has to be a SMALL car just because the first implementation GM is putting it to use in happens to be the Volt, which is a small car?

[uboys]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

My take on this was not a "rebadged Volt", just using the E-Flex powertrain in a Cadillac for massive torque, quiet powerful driving AND the world's first extended range electric luxury car.

Cadillac might make something along the lines of the Tesla Roadster with the E-Flex platform, but don't think that it will be cheap. The roadster is already close to $90,000 (although GM has the advantage of scale).

However, I think you=--like many enviros--are highly deluded about many of your ideas; including the notion that an electric car is some sort of "performance" equal to gas. No way. Any "high torque" would be short-lived with the state of technology today.

[uboys]

Originally Posted by Maetrix66

Does anyone ever notice that alot of the people with alternative life views are either rich or come from rich families?

I guess if you aren't spending every waking moment trying to stay afloat like the rest of us, then you sit around looking for things to do.

Idle hands are the devils playground.

Yes.

[uboys]

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

Uboy:

You've got to do something to control your blood pressure, or you'll be in a wheelchair before the car debuts!

I'll answer and I'll try not to scream! My family has purchased GM cars for over 60 years, in fact my late Dad, worked at a Chevrolet Dealership (in the 50's). I have been acquainted with Robert "Bob" Lutz's accomplishments for decades.

I simply wanted to ask for "No Re-badges." I didn't state they would be re-badges. I am not in a GM facility or a member of the GM Board, or engineering staff. I am a consumer with GM experience, and my personal preferences.

I have a question about your first question on the 7 years of Bob Lutz reign:

1. Was not the Buick Lucerne a rebadge of the Cadillac DTS?

2. Was not the Saturn Sky as rebadge of the Pontiac Solstice?

3. Was not the Chevrolet Tahoe, later rebadged as a GMC, and finally the Cadillac Escalade?

And didn't this occur within the last 7 years?

Sorry. I replied within 5 minutes of waking up. It was a bad idea.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Bob Lutz PROMISED us NO MORE re-badges... And yet EVERY Saturn is a Re-badge and EVERY Pontiac (save one) is a Re-badge...

Rather then fix this mistake... Now we get word from GM that if you can't transfer the headlight assembly from a Sky to a Solstice they aren't re-badges...

PLEASE... People AREN'T that stupid.

If by re-badges for Saturn and Pontiac you mean Opel and Holden, well that was a rather poor arguement. How exactly are they re-badges if they don't even exist in our market? A re-badge is something that are identical inside and out, but are within the same market. The cost of killing off two brands and importing two other ones can certainly not be justified, sharing models between those brands make perfect sense. Ask anyone that isn't into cars like everyone on this site, which accounts for more than 90% of people and they have no idea what Opel and Holden are.

As for your comment regarding the Sky or Solstice, I really can't begin to understand how those are even considered re-badges. It has a completely different shell, different interior design and materials, different tuning/tweaks.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by zete

Seems a lot of folks confuse GM -- and Lutz's -- comments that the E-Flex power train will be shared across all GM brands -- with the Volt being but a single instantiation of the power train.

The Provoq was obviously an E-Flex mule. And I can see the next gen DTS/STS -- when it finally arrives -- as being E-Flex. The larger vehicles may even be able to get longer driving ranges as they can pack in more batteries. Plus, GM can charge way more for a Buick or Cadillac with E-Flex than for a Chevrolet.

Imagine, and wouldn't it be sweet to have GM produce an E-Flex ULS (DTS/STS combo) that can go 100 miles / 160km on a charge! And don't you think a lot of very wealthy folks would opt for an E-Flex Cadillac over, say, a 7 series or Mercedes S-class diesel?

And who's to say it has to be a SMALL car just because the first implementation GM is putting it to use in happens to be the Volt, which is a small car?

Cudos on the first logical reply of this thread.

[zete]

Originally Posted by fp115

Cudos on the first logical reply of this thread.

Thanks. But of late I've noticed on GMI that there's a lot of "Oh my God! The sky's falling!" type of noise.

A bit of careful reflection will result in a lot of lowered blood pressure. Plus, there are a lot of rumours out there -- some may be true. But why freak out before we know the facts. Of course, some don't like getting confused by the facts as it gets in the way of their arguments.

My biggest worry isn't GM sharing E-Flex but GM totally screwing up Pontiac's chance at survival. As Mike Holmes says up here in Canada, "If you're going to do it, do it right the first time." If those rumours pertaining to Pontiac are accurate, then GM has little intention of doing anything right by way of Pontiac. And that's just sad.

[Saturn69]

Okay, rebadgi-phobes, here's what a rebadge looks like:


Chevy Celebrity


Pontiac 6000

Chevy Chevette


Pontiac T1000 / Acadian

See? They are the same car, just a different badge, hence 'rebadge'. Okay, you still with me? Alright, these cars share a common platform:


Saturn Aura


Pontiac G6


Chevy Malibu


Saab 93

They share no exterior body panels, no glass...nothing but a common electrical architecture, floorpan, suspension, and some drivetrain. They are NOT REBADGES. Do we understand that now? Didn't think so.

The Sky and Solstice are not rebadges. They share a windshield and no exterior or interior body panels. The Lucerne and DTS share nothing but a drivetrain and floopan; no exterior panels, interior parts or glass. I cannot understand why it is so hard for people to 'get' what a rebadge is. Is not the Acura CSX a Honda Civic? Is not the Camry a Lexus ES? The Porsche Cayenne is a VW Touareg, the VW Routan is a Chrylser T/C. Get a frakin' grip.