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Avista, Not Only Is It Not Coming.....

33K views 200 replies 66 participants last post by  bmwboy2007 
#1 · (Edited)
But....people almost got fired for releasing it to the public as a concept. There are no plans for it from Buick, never were, and in fact upper management is pretty pissed off it ever even saw the light of day.
 
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#168 · (Edited)
In a sense, before about 1975 when the divisions started sharing engines, GM really was made up of 'separate entities.' It's surprising how little the divisions shared and not just their own engines. You had jetaway vs. Powerglide etc.

GM was most successful when the divisions competed against each other.

In the "preserve Chevy's advantage" game, Oldsmobile had to sacrifice its (potentially at least) cool F car back in '67.

This is wrong headed, especially since the two cars are more complements to each other than direct competitors.

More intra division competition will make GM stronger. It seems paradoxical, but has proven true historically.
 
#169 ·
I disagree. The problem with the notion of rivalry between divisions in old GM was there was very little consequence for failure. Sure, an exec might get transferred to a less-plum appointment. But, divisions that were succeeding didn't necessarily get more resources; divisions that weren't selling certainly didn't get the axe to plough resources into those that did. Chevy (by far) drove most of the volume and revenues at GM, with the other divisions providing less volume but marginally more margins. All of that made perfect sense when the US market was growing quickly and GM owned nearly 50% of the market -- having more divisions and sales channels allowed GM to capture more and more of the market growth.

When the market matured and growth slowed, this model became a disadvantage, with lost of inherent cost and complexity to deliver barely differentiated products.

GM has two choices -- either operate the divisions as complementary brands that use shared engineering resources to deliver differentiated products and experiences. Or make each 'division' a separate operating entity and let it live -- or die -- based on its ability to drive sales, revenues and profits. Given the limited growth in a lot of GM's established markets, I'd guess the former would be the smarter bet as it's focused on maximizing margins (if executed properly).
 
#179 ·
My take on it. the Camaro designers are forced to design a car with retro styling and are pissed off that the Buick guys got to do a future looking vehicle with no retro. The publics' reaction to the new design was a kick in the guts to them but it shouldn't be. There are customers who want retro and customers who don't. GM should be satisfying both markets - so what if a few people cross shop and chose one over the other as long as they stay with GM.
 
#182 ·
You know, going back and reviewing my conversation on this and some other things, I'm beginning to come around to this opinion as well.

There is a bigger story here.
 
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#185 ·
I don't get the constant comparisons between Avista and Camaro.

Camaro is hard-edged, brawny, distinctly American sports coupe with a blue-collar flavour. It's Bob Seger's "Night Moves"...

Avista is more of a relaxed touring coupe with a transatlantic tone. It's sultry and sexy. It's Gerry Rafferty's "Baker Street"...

The two cars serve two perfunctory and arguably disparate purposes. Comparisons seem out of order.
 
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#196 ·
I don't think retro is the problem.

Mustang has retro styling, and sales are up over the previous generation Mustang.

Think it is more like a half hearted attempt or GM taking a "safe" approach and not wanting to take any chances.

It could also be tied to the Camaro being based on Alpha and some hard points creating "design restrictions" that would be too costly to change, although it is far more likely the approach taken.
 
#197 ·
Folks, the reason for the uproar is simply that Buick's concepts are overshadowing what Cadillac (and to an extent Chevy) is producing. If the Avista/Avenir did not have the kind of publicity they did, then none of this would be happening.

The fact that Cadillac/Chevy were not behind this is the problem and I believe the GM brass know it. Higher level GM brass relish the competition between brands, but, are now receiving the repercussions of such decisions when a lowly GM brand outperforms Caddy/Chevy. Examples of this in the past are (Saturn: Aura, Astro, Outlook, Sky Oldsmobile: Aurora Pontiac: G8, GTO, Solstice).

The "last gasp" examples from the former GM brands actually took some MOJO away from the true core brands of GM: Cadillac, Chevrolet, and GMC. Eventually, their ideas were used in one way shape or form for the remaining core brands to pursue going forwards. At the same time, it allowed those soon-to-be-former brands to live yet another year in sales as an example to the core brands of where to go.

I believe that this is the example of the same thing. All those questions around how Buick's brand in China is based on the brand existing in the US are in my opinion untrue. I can see a future for Buick a little like Holden where Opel owns the brand and design with Buick staying in China and possibly going away everywhere else. The US would have Chevy/Caddy to fill in those holes and Opel to basically take the rest of the world--if they can start making money for GM.

A world in which GM doesn't sell Buick in the US is not seen by GM brass as a negative sales impact to either the US or China.
 
#198 · (Edited)
That is short sighted and proves that GM never learns.

Dropping all of the other brands only resulted in making competitors stronger and GM losing market share it will never regain.

Cadillac and Chevrolet will never be global brands for GM and will forever limit GM's global profitability since it does not have an efficient global brand (when it could easily have one in Buick/GMC/Holden/Opel/Vauxhall) and is forced to spend extra money propping up regional Cadillac and Chevrolet.

This will become more burdensome as China becomes the number one automotive market and forces it's brands upon global markets that will push out the regional players.

Toyota already sees this and is why they bought into Subaru and Mazda who will be their Buick and Pontiac to replace the market segments GM is giving away, Toyota will continue to systematically eliminate segment after segment from competitors and make they profits they give away while making the Toyota brand far stronger than Chevrolet. GM can out flank this today, but continues a regional strategy in a global marketplace.
 
#199 ·
There was a part of me that was believing that "Avista" may have become the next gen Camaro...

GM brass probably signed off on the Avista to garner some attention for Buick, knowing full well they would never build a Buick "pony car" or sport coupe. But what I think they wanted more was to gauge reaction to its overall design... Which would've been used, more or less, for the next gen Camaro. Then the Avista went out and gained waaaayyyy more attention than most any other concept from any manufacturer this year.

I believe the Avenir was designed originally as a Holden, as was the Avista. But then they were given the green light to be built as Buick concepts, as Holden manufacturing was known to be coming to an end, and the era of Holden Opels/Buicks was underway. I also believe it is very likely that the Avenir was shelved so as not to compete with the CT6 (at a lower price), but also so it wouldn't possibly kill the CTS, with which it would probably share its pricing.

I think think the attention Avista has garnered is the same thing that will ultimately kill it. That is, I believe that GM would build a production version for Chevrolet under the Camaro nameplate, and piggy-back sales to Holden (Monaro?) from U.S. production, but would never build a Buick sport coupe. But Avista has garnered far more attention than most concepts, with Buick receiving more buzz from social media, fans of sporty/sports cars all over the world stating how they would fork over whatever Buick wanted to charge for the privilege of owning an Avista. Now Avista = Buick, and there's no way an "Avista Camaro" (or Monaro) will ever see the light of day, as I simply don't see GM green-lighting production of yet another Alpha vehicle (a coupe no less) that will compete in the $35k-$60k markets... Their reasoning would be that the car would steal much needed sales from Camaro, ATS & CTS, which it probably would. But it would also steal from other manufacturers as well.

And that's pretty much where we stand: Avista is too ingrained as a Buick to become a next gen Camaro, and with production already in place for the Camaro, ATS & CTS, there's no way that an Alpha Buick coupe is going to be introduced any time soon (read: never). "Avista," as we know it, is probably already dead... But it may well serve as the baseline to the design direction of the next gen Camaro... That is, I think the next Camaro will be a fully modern design, with few if any retro bits, which it doesn't need...
 
#200 · (Edited)
Piecing together the tidbit which started this thread and a few other previous nuggets, it makes me believe that design-wise, GM figured that the new Camaro was going to hit an eleven on a scale of 1-10. At the Belle Isle reveal, there were whispers inside GM that the public and press reaction to the 6th gen's design was less than what GM expected. Maybe MUCH less. But...no worries, the world would learn to appreciate it.
Until the Avista was revealed a couple months after Camaro production started.

The universal acclaim that the Avista got, is what GM thought they'd get with the new Camaro - but didn't. Hurt feelings and ruffled feathers ensued.
 
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