[FORD]: NEW Scorpion V8 Diesel Information (post 63 - prelim power numbers)

[1931Chevy]

IMO Ford will make a comeback , the last time Ford was overhauling their products was back in 1985 with the aero car designs ,but this time its totally different this time is a complete global plan that goes from new powertrains from i4 to v8 to global designs from small cars to full size and this means IMO their is a bright future for Ford coming

[nailhead425]

Originally Posted by FordFan

Boss is already on the way

When is the debut? Gen III/IV small blocks have been around for 11 years.

Originally Posted by FordFan

they have 2 diesels for trucks and both are IN-HOUSE,

And where are they? Again, they need this stuff now.

Originally Posted by FordFan

expanded V6 lineup? oh yea just like GM's idiotic...err chaotic V6 lineup, I think the D35 architecture is fine and with the D37 it will be complete.

Really? Trucks, large cars, Mustang? Future potential doesn't impact a present need.

Originally Posted by FordFan

Platforms? B2 (New Fiesta/New MZ2), C2 (upcoming unified Focus) and EUCD2 (upcoming mid/fullsize platform) are coming, The B2 is already here (Mazda 2) add to that the newly confirmed Huntsman platform to underpin every RWD FLM cars, yes this finally includes the panthers, this is it at last. They don't have the cashflow? umm they bet the farm at the end of 2005, I can imagine they burned 22Bil during ONE YEAR.

These are all future plans, which are great on paper, but Ford is in trouble and future plans are in jeopardy as more dissatisfied customers leave for other car makers. Ask anyone in sales which is the more difficult sale, a repeat customer or a conquest?

This has been the historic GM pitfall. Promise big, deliver small.

[duramaximizer]

The background for the scorpion icon is an SMV sign.

[fenderbender]

Originally Posted by igor

the only voice that said anything about GM and DCX NOT moving on with their diesels byu 2012 was the little paranoid voice inside your head ..

I never said anything to that extent.

if you re-read the thread you will see that you tried to put those words in my mouth before ... give up finally.

Igor

Ummm...ouch. Somebody's been drinking a little to much cool aid. I was not downing the Scorpion project at all, nor was putting any words in your mouth. Just stating the fact that by 2012 GM and Dodge will probably have updated their diesels significantly, nothing against you or Ford or Ford diesels, just a comment....

[ScottyFLM]

dug this one out of the grave, lol

[chevypowa670]

Originally Posted by igor

UPDATE

It seems the decision to develop an in house Diesel is not a recent one - but was amade at least 12 months ago.

At this moment, Ford has an In-House SuperDuty V8 diesel PRogram Called Scorpion and this program has 6.7l V8 Turbo Diesel engines up and running on Dynos ..

no more details right now, but I will kee you posted.

Igor

scorpion? how 5th grade of them

[DuSpinnst]

I'd like a diesel V6 sedan with a manual, Ford, GM or Chrysler will do fine.

[AMERICA 123]

www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-nav-f-navistar-sues-ford-engine-feb28,0,7205874.story
chicagotribune.com

Navistar refiles suit over engine contract against Ford

By James P. Miller
Tribune staff reporter
1:27 PM CST, February 28, 2008

Navistar International Corp. resumed its high-stakes legal fight with customer Ford Motor Co., by re-filing a lawsuit that alleges the auto maker is planning to violate a supply agreement by making its own diesel engine for Ford pickup trucks.

Warrenville-based Navistar, while best known as a maker of medium and heavy-duty trucks under the International brand, is also a leading maker of diesel engines. For decades, in fact, It has been Ford's sole supplier of diesel engines for the Detroit company's heavy-duty pickups.

Over the past year, however, the relationship has soured, and the two have been squabbling on two different fronts.

Navistar filed a lawsuit in June of 2007, alleging that Ford intends to make a diesel engine on its own, with a design that Navistar engineers created at Ford's request. That suit said Ford appears to be planning to produce in North America a smaller version of an engine it makes in Britain for sale in Europe.

But, Navistar's suit said in June, Ford will be using a design that Navistar designers had helped Ford create, in what the two companies labeled the "Lion project." The two companies had agreed Ford would build the proposed Lion engine at a factory in England under license from Navistar, but that Navistar would make the engine if Ford ever began producing the Lion engine in North America.

The suit alleged Ford is using the Lion design to make a 4.4 liter diesel engine that it intends to begin producing in North America – at a plant in Mexico -- by late 2009 or 2010. Doing so would be a breach of contract, Navistar claimed.

The original suit, filed in Cook County Circuit Court, was dismissed by Judge Dennis Burke, who said both sides should pursue mediation of the dispute. If mediation didn't yield a resolution, he said, Navistar could re-file.

On Thursday, the truck and engine maker said it has re-filed the suit, and asserted that "Ford cannot manufacture the engine without violating its contract with Navistar."

At the time Navistar filed the original suit over the "Lion" engine, Ford denied any wrongdoing and said the suit is "without merit."

jpmiller@tribune.com

Copyright © 2008, Chicago Tribune

[AMERICA 123]

Excellent article. Lots of background info and a good summary from 2007.

Looks like Navistar was right about Ford's intentions as far as timing.

Ford Plans Own Diesel Engines, Navistar Says

By Byron Pope
WardsAuto.com, May 4, 2007 11:41 AM

Ford Motor Co. is working to develop its own diesel engines for use in its F-Series Super-Duty pickups, says the auto maker’s current diesel supplier, Navistar International Inc.
An amended counter-complaint filed by Navistar claims Ford does not intend to purchase diesel engines from the supplier after ’09, although the contract between the two companies is binding through 2012. Navistar is seeking $2 billion in damages from Ford.

A copy of the counter-complaint obtained by Ward's says Navistar has “information and belief” that “Ford has been working on a program to design and manufacture its own diesel engines for model-year 2010.”

Navistar bases its claim, in part, on communication with its suppliers.
“Ford told Siemens (VDO Automotive), one of (Navistar’s) key suppliers, that Ford will not comply with the agreement, and will not purchase diesel truck engines from Navistar after model-year 2009,” says the complaint, filed Wednesday in an Oakland County, MI, court.

“On information and belief, Ford has made the same statement to others in the marketplace.

Ford has informed third parties that despite the agreement designating (Navistar) as Ford’s exclusive supplier of diesel engines through July 31, 2012, Ford intends to manufacture its own engines and not purchase them from (Navistar).”

Ford’s apparent decision to back out of its deal has caused problems that go beyond Navistar, the engine supplier says.....

......“Ford not only breached the agreement but has also interfered with (Navistar’s) relationships with its own suppliers, who are worried about the consequences should Ford improperly refuse to buy diesel truck engines after 2009.”

A Ford spokeswoman says there is “no basis” for Navistar’s allegations.
“If there is anything true about breaches in the contract, it is that they have already occurred by Navistar for not honoring its obligations on warranty and pricing,” the spokeswoman tells Ward's. She adds that Ford intends to honor its contract and will be vindicated of the charges in court. The trial is slated to begin June 26, 2008.

Bad blood between the companies dates back to January <2007> when Ford filed a lawsuit claiming Navistar owed money for warranty repairs on the previous-generation 6.0L PowerStroke diesel. Ford alleged Navistar defaulted on an agreement to share warranty costs.
At the time, Navistar said Ford’s claims were “totally without merit,” and it would “vigorously respond in court.”


The argument escalated when Ford reportedly took the unorthodox move of subtracting the amount of money it said Navistar owed from the agreed-upon price of the new diesel mills. Ford reportedly began paying Navistar $6,167 per-unit price of $7,673.

Warrenville, IL-based Navistar responded by announcing it had ceased production and delivery of its new 6.4L PowerStroke engines, alleging Ford had breached terms of their current supply agreement.
However, an Oakland County court ruled on Feb. 28 that Navistar had to resume engine shipments.

In the latest filing,<2007> Navistar claims the auto maker already has attempted to void the current supply agreement. “Ford wanted to terminate the agreement at the end of Model Year 2009,” the document reads. “(Navistar) offered reasonable and appropriate terms for said termination, but Ford refused.”

Navistar also disputes Ford’s claims that Super Duty pickups with the 6.0L diesel could not be repaired. The auto maker said it had to buy back the trucks from customers.

Navistar says when Ford finally allowed its engineers to attempt repairs, they had a success rate of nearly 100%, rendering as invalid the auto maker’s original claim for unpaid warranty costs.
Furthermore, “in almost half of these instances, the repair (to the extent one was even necessary) was made with such relative ease that even a marginally trained technician should have been able to diagnose and fix the problem the first time,” Navistar says in the filing.

Navistar sums up Ford’s actions by saying the auto maker “has turned desperate” due to its current weakened state. The auto maker lost a staggering $12.7 billion last year. <2006>
“Ford has begun to ignore its contractual responsibilities and demand concessions from (Navistar) without any legal basis, in an attempt to help its bottom line,” the engine maker says in its filing.

Navistar claims Ford went so far as to say that if the engine maker didn’t accede to its demands, it would be faced with a single alternative: “facing the wrath of the entire Ford Motor Co.”...................

Meanwhile, a report in Bloomberg News says Fiat Automobiles SpA, Italy's biggest auto manufacturer, is working on entering the U.S. market through its Iveco truckmaking unit, perhaps by purchasing Navistar.
“We are looking for ways to establish a presence for Iveco in the U.S.,” CEO Sergio Marchionne tells Bloomberg. “Our target is to transform Iveco from an international player to a global one.”............

..........However, Marchionne somewhat tempered the speculation by adding the truck maker’s entry into the U.S. market “may be done through the most unusual and unconventional ways that no one has ever forecast,” .........and “doesn't have to mean buying" Navistar.

bpope@wardsauto.com

© 2008 Penton Media, Inc. All rights reserved.

Find this article at:
http://www.wardsauto.com/ar/ford_die...tar/index.html

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Cabana Boy

So if I recall, the rift between Ford and Navistar began when Navistar fell far short of one of it's Diesel V6 engines development specifications (4.5L, if memory serves correctly) in both power and far over in weight and cost. This caused Ford to pull the plug on the whole program, and divorce court was a certainty after they haggled over who should eat the biggest write-off. This goes back like 6 years. I bet Ford saw this coming with the last 6.0L problems and has been busy as a beaver with a hushed Diesel in the works, but could not say so because Navistar was still invited in the house for dinner. Makes for awkward table conversation. Now, all hell broke loose.

This is incorrect and partially correct - I think - not sure.

I think the main error here is that that project was with Caterpillar and was originally started as a participant project in the DOE Light Truck Clean Diesel Program.

The initial engine that was produced was relatively big and heavy (all sizes 'tried') and not up to the rest of them (in the DOE program) as far as 'power' . (HP and torque)
The power 'lack' appeared to have an easy possible remedy because it used a 'cheaper' '' 'low pressure' HEUI FI system . (More Ford's idea I 'heard')

Highway and City MPG appeared to have been strong - can't remember for sure but I believe it was one of the best with advantages of 'about' 1-3 (city) and 2-4 (highway).

All the above was also effected for better and for worse by the choice of a smaller initial size - motivated by the internal program goal of doubling the then current F150 4.6L fuel economy numbers.
Ford greatly lowered their participation when in preliminary redesign discussions with Caterpillar, Caterpillar wanted to pursue (correctly as it turns out) much stricter emissions standards.(Ca. LEV2.)

That joint project was referred to as the Caterpillar/Ford 3.0L,V6 HSDI.
There were several different variations built include a twin turbo.
My understanding was it wasn't strictly a weight issue although that was the main problem in the bigger sizes considered.

[igor]

all besides the breach of contract one thing that P-O's me about Navistar;s suit is their claim that "LION" is their diesel - IT IS NOT!!

They might have had some project called lion, but the LION diesel Ford is planning for the F150 (4.4l V8) and its big brother for the Super Duty (6.7l called Scorpion) are somehow related t oNavistar technology, engines, patents or work.

The whole base for that enigine is based in EUROPE where Ford partnered wit the French automake PAS (Peugeot Citroen) and developed a slew of new small, medium, and large diesels all under the code name of LION. These range from tiny I4's to V8's
And these engines have NOTHING to do with navistar.

Navi has all the right in the world to sue for breach of contract (as Ford has the right to sue back for breach of contract), but to pull in the EU built LION engine is ridiculous.

Igor

[AMERICA 123]

I'm not trying to take sides here but Navistar sees it this way.

But, Navistar's suit said in June, Ford will be using a design that Navistar designers had helped Ford create, in what the two companies labeled the "Lion project."

The two companies had agreed Ford would build the proposed Lion engine at a factory in England under license from Navistar, but that Navistar would make the engine if Ford ever began producing the Lion engine in North America.

It may get down to the interpretation of the agreement rather than if Navistar designed it.

[Devodev]

Since Ford wants to come out with this before the contract expires, is it possible that they could/would with this impending lawsuit? It seems that it's quite a chance to take if they put some out on the road and lost the lawsuit. But on the other side, it's taking forever for this to get resolved and I'm sure it's running into Ford's timeline for getting this engine out.

[rlchv70]

Originally Posted by igor

The whole base for that enigine is based in EUROPE where Ford partnered wit the French automake PAS (Peugeot Citroen) and developed a slew of new small, medium, and large diesels all under the code name of LION. These range from tiny I4's to V8's
And these engines have NOTHING to do with navistar.

Igor

Not true. There were Navistar engineers living in Europe and working directly with the PAS and Ford engineers.

[syr74]

I do not know how much involvement Navistar did or didn't have with FOE. But I can say that the agreement between Peugeot and Ford is often misunderstood actually being an agreement based more on the sharing of independently designed diesel engines rather than co-development of the same. The 2.7L TDi V6 and 4.4L TDi V8 were in fact designed almost entirely by Ford while other, smaller diesel engines used by both Ford and PSA under this agreement were designed almost entirely by PSA.

As for Navistar having developed any or all of the upcoming 4.4L V8, the answer there would be no. Even in their own claim they only cite an 11 million dollar development budget which likely wouldn't even be enough to cover the development of a nice set of injectors.

This latest problem goes back to their agreement with Ford to supply small diesel engines, initially with the disaster that became the 4.5L V6 and later with an agreement for Navistar to build the new 4.4L Lion V8 for the Amercan market.....a deal which is falling through for obvious reasons. The 11 million dollar claim cited in their lawsuit likely has to do with money devoted to that effort.