[FORD]: NEW Scorpion V8 Diesel Information (post 63 - prelim power numbers)

[Cabana Boy]

Leaky injectors using Piezo crystaline material, does not make sense to me. It's solid state, either on or off. I would expect a leak in the old injection system that used regulated oil pressure to activate, because it is variable. It just seems backwards. I wonder if the occassional old injectors did leak, but you never knew it because there was not an elaborate catalyst system back then.

[Havasavana]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

I don't know - this "completely in-house" talk combined with "quickly" scares the hell out of me when we are talking about a diesel of this size. These are incredibly sophisticated engines put under a lot of stress, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Ford has never designed a diesel for this market (or any market??) on it's own before, has it? Did I read somewhere that they designed a lot of the 6.4L? Even if they did, the jury hasn't even begun deliberating on this engine yet.

A PSA tie-in would probably be an improvement. Has PSA designed a relatively large commercial diesel before? At least they could give Ford a leg up in emission-related components.

The Powerstroke and it's replacement are so important to Ford I would think they would go to another established diesel builder for help. Don't they own part of Cummins?

It had better scare the hell out of Ford too. I wonder if this could be a ploy as a bargaining chip with IH. If Ford goes through with this, and it fails, it could take them out of the large pickup market, and that would take them down.

I was told by a Cummins engineer in 1990 that Cummins had shopped their 5.9 to Ford before they offered it to Dodge. Ford passed. A HUGE mistake in hindsight of course.

An article in the WSJ today speculates that a GM purchase of Chrysler would face anti-trust problems. GM has 38.2% of the pickup market, Chrysler has 16.4% and Ford, 36.8%. I wonder if Ford might be interested in the big pickup portion to give them rights to the Cummins engine. This would certainly put IH in a bind and also put a lot of pressure on GM since the Cummins engine seems to get much greater respect than what Ford has used in their trucks recently.

Ford owns no part of Cummins.

[fenderbender]

Originally Posted by igor

ehm .. you can never take off your "defend GM" glasses can you? if yo ure-read my post you will see that "Duramax beating ..." was a recount of what I was told, and I continue to be sceptical of this being of any significance .. (because I was sure that any brand new project has SOMETHING "class leading" in the goals - and it often has no bearing on the actual result of that project.)

take a step back once in a while and think before you post knee-jerk reaction like the one above.

Igor

I wasn't trying to be a jerk, it's just Ford will have a huge obstacle in front of them if they want to be class leading, kind of like what Chevy had to do when they had the crappy 6.5 a while back. It can be done, but not easily, the competition is constantly evolving.

[napolron]

Originally Posted by Cabana Boy

Leaky injectors using Piezo crystaline material, does not make sense to me. It's solid state, either on or off. I would expect a leak in the old injection system that used regulated oil pressure to activate, because it is variable. It just seems backwards. I wonder if the occassional old injectors did leak, but you never knew it because there was not an elaborate catalyst system back then.

This is what I was told the problem is.

Ford is post injecting fuel after the combustion event as a means of dosing the diesel oxidation catalyst with hydrocarbons. This generates considerable heat in the DOC which heats the diesel particulate filter (DPF) and starts a regeneration. Regeneration of the DPF is done to burn out the soot that accumulates which essentially self cleans the filter and reduces the backpressure. The post injections only occur at low load conditions where the exhaust itself is not hot engouh to make the DPF regenerate on its own. They've probably discovered that they are forcing these active regenerations at too high of load which is causing excessive temps. This will change the number of regenerations that occur and over the life of the vehicle which will probably affect filter life.

[ford&holden]

Originally Posted by fenderbender

I wasn't trying to be a jerk, it's just Ford will have a huge obstacle in front of them if they want to be class leading, kind of like what Chevy had to do when they had the crappy 6.5 a while back. It can be done, but not easily, the competition is constantly evolving.

Isn't that competition in general?

[RamJet502]

The new Dodge Bluetec 6.7L diesel is supposed to already meet the 2010 clean diesel standards and will be available in all 50 states. That should be Ford and GM's target.

[fenderbender]

Originally Posted by ford&holden

Isn't that competition in general?

That's very true.

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by igor

agree - this is a big risk, but one needed to be taken IMO.

Igor

Sadly, it sounds like you are right. It's a shame at what's happened with Navistar in this deal. I don't know if they have quality problems across their product line, but while I was growing up on a farm, IH was always very well respected for both tractors and trucks. Maybe not as much as John Deere, but not far behind.

But it seems this problem has been going on long enough that Ford needs to find another way to source these engines.

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by fenderbender

I wasn't trying to be a jerk, it's just Ford will have a huge obstacle in front of them if they want to be class leading, kind of like what Chevy had to do when they had the crappy 6.5 a while back. It can be done, but not easily, the competition is constantly evolving.

This is what I was thinking. When the Duramax came on the scene, the PowerStroke and the Cummins were getting pretty long-in-tooth and hadn't seen any major bumps in horsepower. The Duramax put out almost 25% more horsepower than the nearest competitor, more torque, was a quantum leap ahead in NVH, and came packaged with a transmission with 1 extra ratio and a name and specifications that inspired confidence that it could actually handle the power (not a strong point for the other two). These things together were hugely compelling to get people to take a chance on an unproven engine.

But now that all three have been constantly improving both engine output and refinement and transmissions I don't think Ford, GM, or Dodge could put out an engine or transmission that was far in front of the others. I would expect to see incremental improvements instead of big jumps in the future.

Also, I keep thinking at some point the power of these diesels will reach a point where you simply can't take advantage of them in a pickup and a higher hp/torque rating wouldn't be that big of a draw anymore. But then I've thought that ever since the Duramax was introduced and every year someone ups the ante, so what do I know.

[doh]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

This is what I was thinking. When the Duramax came on the scene, the PowerStroke and the Cummins were getting pretty long-in-tooth and hadn't seen any major bumps in horsepower. The Duramax put out almost 25% more horsepower than the nearest competitor, more torque, was a quantum leap ahead in NVH, and came packaged with a transmission with 1 extra ratio and a name and specifications that inspired confidence that it could actually handle the power (not a strong point for the other two). These things together were hugely compelling to get people to take a chance on an unproven engine.
.

Not as a bad thing, and not flaming you,(because I truely know that I have been causing some Flame Wars) but You should be rallying the Sales people on anyside.

The way you put foward your tought on what was happening is brilliant and not a flame against anyone.


Yes Duramax had So much to offer in 2001,(if as a sales person selling them then) that it really should be looking back right now, just like the 7.3L did before that,(as a sales person selling the 6.5L diesels) and before that the Cummins did.

Very well put!

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by doh

Not as a bad thing, and not flaming you,(because I truely know that I have been causing some Flame Wars) but You should be rallying the Sales people on anyside.

The way you put foward your tought on what was happening is brilliant and not a flame against anyone.


Yes Duramax had So much to offer in 2001,(if as a sales person selling them then) that it really should be looking back right now, just like the 7.3L did before that,(as a sales person selling the 6.5L diesels) and before that the Cummins did.

Very well put!

Well thanks, Doh!

[dratnol]

Does Cat or Detroit Diesel have anything currently that Ford could use? I know that Cat was an option on the F550 a few years ago.

[Cabana Boy]

Originally Posted by dratnol

Does Cat or Detroit Diesel have anything currently that Ford could use? I know that Cat was an option on the F550 a few years ago.

Why does everyone assume the whole engine is junk, merely because the supplier who sub contracted for their supplied injectors...has some issues? The catalyst system from Ford is not too blame, it is not the root cause of the problem either.

We don't even know all the facts or final solution, and everyone is jumping to conclusions. It is being addressed as we speak I am sure, and we only know the band-aide fix for now. Or did I miss something completely?

[igor]

UPDATE

It seems the decision to develop an in house Diesel is not a recent one - but was amade at least 12 months ago.

At this moment, Ford has an In-House SuperDuty V8 diesel PRogram Called Scorpion and this program has 6.7l V8 Turbo Diesel engines up and running on Dynos ..

no more details right now, but I will kee you posted.

Igor

[Cabana Boy]

Cool name.
I hope it does not sting them in the end