[FORD]: NEW Scorpion V8 Diesel Information (post 63 - prelim power numbers)

[Cabana Boy]

Originally Posted by igor

^^The issues with the 6.4l were all software based .. FOrd found a solution in a more cautious controll programming that will more closely monitor temperature in the particulate filter of the deisel and if it raises too much, it will reduce the power of the engine.

I still think they need new diesel that is not connected ot Navistar.

Igor

Absolutely on the new in-house Diesel, but there still remains the issue of leaky injectors on this all new 6.4L. Has anyone mentioned that, which is the root cause of the fuel leak?

[ohmywrd8]

They need one for their small cars.

[1931Chevy]

I think that this new engine will go to the Superduty by the next refresh of the Superduty

[FordFan]

6.4 shouldn't have existed after the 6.0 fiasco.

Better late than never I guess.

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by igor

They might base it on the Ford/PSA (Peugeot/Ctiroen) LION program which brought us the 4.4l V8 going to the F150.

otherwise it will be completely in-house.

Igor

I don't know - this "completely in-house" talk combined with "quickly" scares the hell out of me when we are talking about a diesel of this size. These are incredibly sophisticated engines put under a lot of stress, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Ford has never designed a diesel for this market (or any market??) on it's own before, has it? Did I read somewhere that they designed a lot of the 6.4L? Even if they did, the jury hasn't even begun deliberating on this engine yet.

A PSA tie-in would probably be an improvement. Has PSA designed a relatively large commercial diesel before? At least they could give Ford a leg up in emission-related components.

The Powerstroke and it's replacement are so important to Ford I would think they would go to another established diesel builder for help. Don't they own part of Cummins?

[napolron]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

I don't know - this "completely in-house" talk combined with "quickly" scares the hell out of me when we are talking about a diesel of this size. These are incredibly sophisticated engines put under a lot of stress, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Ford has never designed a diesel for this market (or any market??) on it's own before, has it?

I believe the predecessor to the 7.3 was a Ford engine.

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by napolron

I believe the predecessor to the 7.3 was a Ford engine.

No, I'm sure all of their pickup/van diesels up to this point have been IH/Navistar designs, all the way back to the original 6.9L in the mid-80's.

I just don't know if Ford has ever done any truck diesels in Europe or in medium duties in NA.

[FordFan]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

No, I'm sure all of their pickup/van diesels up to this point have been IH/Navistar designs, all the way back to the original 6.9L in the mid-80's.

I just don't know if Ford has ever done any truck diesels in Europe or in medium duties in NA.

The Transit in Europe has always used diesels.

[hdmax]

Ford is trying to make International look bad, but Ford is just as much to blame for the problems the 6.0L has had to date.

[igor]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

I don't know - this "completely in-house" talk combined with "quickly" scares the hell out of me when we are talking about a diesel of this size. These are incredibly sophisticated engines put under a lot of stress, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Ford has never designed a diesel for this market (or any market??) on it's own before, has it? Did I read somewhere that they designed a lot of the 6.4L? Even if they did, the jury hasn't even begun deliberating on this engine yet.

A PSA tie-in would probably be an improvement. Has PSA designed a relatively large commercial diesel before? At least they could give Ford a leg up in emission-related components.

The Powerstroke and it's replacement are so important to Ford I would think they would go to another established diesel builder for help. Don't they own part of Cummins?

Ford has developed a lot of Diesels. but not this large (or not for a while) ... The PSA tie up was just a convenience, since both companies needed similar diesels on similar timeline.. both of the companies are well established diesel authorities in Europe and elsewhere.

Ford (unlike GM) dopes not have a weakness in its Diesel skills. but yes - I am not sure whether they have ever produced a huge diesel like this on their own ...

the opinion of which side cause the PS problems varies .. some claim it is Ford, some claim it is Navistar. but I am with Ford .. Ford has improved their relibility beyond reproach .. most of their recent release have been completely problem free, or with minor issues.. but the one plant where FOrd QC is not allowed and the one part that is deliverred to ford basically in the box is the one that continually causes problems.

Finally, it seems that the ultimate cause of the current 6.4l problems are leaky injectors .. it would be important to point out that Ford wanted these to be from Bosch, but Navistar chose Siemens against Ford's will ..

Igor

[Cabana Boy]

Well said Igor. I agree, Ford can't control every aspect of their product manufacturing processes in their plants or their QC. That's where most of the problems originate.

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by igor

Ford has developed a lot of Diesels. but not this large (or not for a while) ... The PSA tie up was just a convenience, since both companies needed similar diesels on similar timeline.. both of the companies are well established diesel authorities in Europe and elsewhere.

Ford (unlike GM) dopes not have a weakness in its Diesel skills. but yes - I am not sure whether they have ever produced a huge diesel like this on their own ...

the opinion of which side cause the PS problems varies .. some claim it is Ford, some claim it is Navistar. but I am with Ford .. Ford has improved their relibility beyond reproach .. most of their recent release have been completely problem free, or with minor issues.. but the one plant where FOrd QC is not allowed and the one part that is deliverred to ford basically in the box is the one that continually causes problems.

Finally, it seems that the ultimate cause of the current 6.4l problems are leaky injectors .. it would be important to point out that Ford wanted these to be from Bosch, but Navistar chose Siemens against Ford's will ..

Igor

Maybe Ford can design a better diesel than Navistar, but it still puts them in an unfortunate position of having to put out yet another all-new design into a market that values long-term reputations so much. The 6.0L used up a lot of goodwill that the 6.9L/7.3L had built up over almost 20 years, which will force the 6.4L to prove itself over perhaps 3-5 years. Then, whether the 6.4L turns out to be reliable or not, Ford will have to introduce another (I'm assuming) complete redesign to it's buyers.

The Duramax and Dodge Cummins benefit from the appearance of having evolved over time rather than being clean sheet designs (even though both have had substantial changes) which may lead them to getting the benefit of the doubt in the marketplace when changes are made. A trouble-free 6.4L Powerstroke will help Ford when they do launch another new engine, but I think it's still a bit of a setback perception-wise. Also, if leaky injectors are to blame for the fire-belching, then I hope Ford has a more permanent fix in the works than just a PCM reflash. Leaky injectors are bound to bite them in many ways.

[fenderbender]

Originally Posted by igor

First details seems to point ot 6.7l displacement and Duramax beating HP and Torque... but of course - all project start with "class leading" in the goals - so we will have to wait a bit

no actual info on timeline, but some specualtion would say that they can have a running prototype by the end of this year, and have reliability and tuning done by the end of the next ...

Igor

I can't see them beating the Duramax, and by the time this engine comes out, there will probably be a new Duramax or a whole new diesel all together for Chevy.

GM isn't about to let it's guard down.

[igor]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

Maybe Ford can design a better diesel than Navistar, but it still puts them in an unfortunate position of having to put out yet another all-new design into a market that values long-term reputations so much. The 6.0L used up a lot of goodwill that the 6.9L/7.3L had built up over almost 20 years, which will force the 6.4L to prove itself over perhaps 3-5 years. Then, whether the 6.4L turns out to be reliable or not, Ford will have to introduce another (I'm assuming) complete redesign to it's buyers.

The Duramax and Dodge Cummins benefit from the appearance of having evolved over time rather than being clean sheet designs (even though both have had substantial changes) which may lead them to getting the benefit of the doubt in the marketplace when changes are made. A trouble-free 6.4L Powerstroke will help Ford when they do launch another new engine, but I think it's still a bit of a setback perception-wise. Also, if leaky injectors are to blame for the fire-belching, then I hope Ford has a more permanent fix in the works than just a PCM reflash. Leaky injectors are bound to bite them in many ways.

agree - this is a big risk, but one needed to be taken IMO.

Igor

[igor]

Originally Posted by fenderbender

I can't see them beating the Duramax, and by the time this engine comes out, there will probably be a new Duramax or a whole new diesel all together for Chevy.

GM isn't about to let it's guard down.

ehm .. you can never take off your "defend GM" glasses can you? if yo ure-read my post you will see that "Duramax beating ..." was a recount of what I was told, and I continue to be sceptical of this being of any significance .. (because I was sure that any brand new project has SOMETHING "class leading" in the goals - and it often has no bearing on the actual result of that project.)

take a step back once in a while and think before you post knee-jerk reaction like the one above.

Igor