Ford hopes dim as more workers vote down cost-saving changes

[throwback]

Originally Posted by BlackGTP

In a recent thread discussing Ford's $35B debt I was posting regaring Ford's need for flawless execution to overcome their high debt level. Their trumpeting their lack of need for a government bailout has hurt them at the bargaining table with the unions. Not that this isn't insurmountable, but in 5 to 8 years Ford could be at quite a disadvantage. Once their current crop of great vehicles that were designed on the $35 billion in debt run their lives Ford must have flawless execution on all fronts to have cash to fund and design a next generation of vehicles.

This is precisely why the Government should not be giving tax payer money to bail out private companies. GM and Chrysler have eliminated their debt not through sound business decisions, but due to the largess of the Government. The Government has chosen sides by favoring 2 US companies over a third. As for the UAW, perhaps they have not been paying attention over the last 2 years. Or more likely they expect the government to ride to the rescue again, so why give up anything. The tax payers will fix it.

[Pistonslap]

Greed could be the death of many jobs in the auto industry. I don't understand all this crap about all the management going elsewhere. If all the unions and the public said enough is enough; these people would not gain by going elsewhere. Besides with the economy so far down in the dumps,are there REALLY that many openings for these people?? I followed the news about what the GM workers were getting for benefits.Such as paid days when they weren't working, lavish health plans, and unbelievable pensions.There wages with benifits were about $75.00 a hour.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by benroethig

Is the UAW committed to making sure all its members are unemployed or something?

No, they just think they can beat the going rate on the labor market.

Here's the thing. Unions used to fight for reasonable length days, appropriate breaks, and worker safety.

Now, they fight for salaries on par with college educated grads, benefits better than 90% of college educated grads and wonder why it isn't working out for them. That's what they had in the 80s / 90s. Couple that with some bad management who didn't see what their competition was doing and now we're in 2009.

The system worked fine when the vast, vast majority of cars were Union made. We paid more than we had to, but we got it back with a robust middle class that spent the extra money in our economy. The problem was Toyota took the cost savings they were getting and pumped it into the product.

Now, most cars around the world aren't Union made and the public doesn't care anymore about "Buy USA". So - it's over. Union salaries have to approach the going rate, which is so much lower it means moving out of the house. So - of course the Union is going to fight. The problem is, it's inevitable.

The Unions are good for something though - the threat of unionization means companies must adhere to those basic worker rights or risk a Union shop. However, most of those victories have been codified into law. You really don't want to mess with OSHA.

[goochman]

Originally Posted by goblue

No, they just think they can beat the going rate on the labor market.

Here's the thing. Unions used to fight for reasonable length days, appropriate breaks, and worker safety.

Now, they fight for salaries on par with college educated grads, benefits better than 90% of college educated grads and wonder why it isn't working out for them. That's what they had in the 80s / 90s. Couple that with some bad management who didn't see what their competition was doing and now we're in 2009.

The system worked fine when the vast, vast majority of cars were Union made. We paid more than we had to, but we got it back with a robust middle class that spent the extra money in our economy. The problem was Toyota took the cost savings they were getting and pumped it into the product.

Now, most cars around the world aren't Union made and the public doesn't care anymore about "Buy USA". So - it's over. Union salaries have to approach the going rate, which is so much lower it means moving out of the house. So - of course the Union is going to fight. The problem is, it's inevitable.

The Unions are good for something though - the threat of unionization means companies must adhere to those basic worker rights or risk a Union shop. However, most of those victories have been codified into law. You really don't want to mess with OSHA.

Well said goblue - Im afraid we need to hit the reset button and start over in alot of cases. We nee dto forget about the 'good times' cause it will never return. Alot of Union construction firms have retrenched and specialized on the high value jobs which require constant training to ensure a quality product delivered - folks will pay an extra 20% for that. The rest of the jobs which dont require that much specialization they dont compete on- they also get rid of the dead weight quickly cause that extra 20% ensures high pay for their ranks. Keeping the folks that ruin that reputation is not good for these Unions - they have found a way to compete with the lower wage immigrant workers and still maintain a good pay wage.

The UAW needs to start thinking about wahts best for their employers and in return more jobs will flow. It has been a constant bleeding of jobs over the past 20 years, if the mind set doesnt change they will all dissapear which is NOT a good thing for anyone in the US.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by goochman

Well said goblue - Im afraid we need to hit the reset button and start over in alot of cases. We nee dto forget about the 'good times' cause it will never return. Alot of Union construction firms have retrenched and specialized on the high value jobs which require constant training to ensure a quality product delivered - folks will pay an extra 20% for that. The rest of the jobs which dont require that much specialization they dont compete on- they also get rid of the dead weight quickly cause that extra 20% ensures high pay for their ranks. Keeping the folks that ruin that reputation is not good for these Unions - they have found a way to compete with the lower wage immigrant workers and still maintain a good pay wage.

The UAW needs to start thinking about wahts best for their employers and in return more jobs will flow. It has been a constant bleeding of jobs over the past 20 years, if the mind set doesnt change they will all dissapear which is NOT a good thing for anyone in the US.

Exactly. The UAW needs to limit membership on merit and offer themselves as elite workers whose training, experience, and quality work offset an increased wage.

[tom3]

Wonder what was in the agreement? Gettlefinger said it gave the workers some long term security. And the cuts were not all that significant. Don't those guys read newspapers?

Gettelfinger said

"This was a positive contract for our membership. It gave them long-term job security and that's what it was all about,"

Workers would get a $1,000 bonus if the deal is ratified, but the proposal also would freeze entry-level wages and require some skilled-trades workers to do more than one job.

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by chevyman1973

I hope ford struggles and needs the govt help and the govt says no! We were going to help you and you said you didnt need the help! Ford is in real trouble, there cars and trucks are not even the top of the line!

Gm got a lot of crap for having the govt help them but in a few we will see how that help them so much!

I sincerely hope you will remember your "hope"(incantation) when your mortgage is called buy a bank and cannot be refinanced! And not think about prayer, it is not for those with bad hearts satisfied by the misfortune of others! You should repent of desire, while you can.

I am not a fanboy for any one company, I wish all well and full employment for everyone, but I realize this will never exist as the "system" makes more money during unrest or conflicts!

A simple solution to the issue is to remind the UAW: That the Auto Industry is going through some uncharted waters in this economy. Production must be reduced as America is in major decline; there just are not enough educated workers and jobs to sustain our expenditures! The rising sleepers of the Far East; China and India and southern economies such as Brazil is where money in the Auto Industry will come from. What FORD must do is to decide where to locate its plants and find its workers! When the rank and file understand this, they will comply!

[theoldwizard]

Originally Posted by tom3

Wonder what was in the agreement?

Biggest hard point for the rank and file was the "No strike" clause.

Plus, many did not believe Ford's commitment to "new" products because specific product names and dates were not in black and white. Some claim that Ford has reneged on other future product promises.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by theoldwizard

Biggest hard point for the rank and file was the "No strike" clause.

Plus, many did not believe Ford's commitment to "new" products because specific product names and dates were not in black and white. Some claim that Ford has reneged on other future product promises.

You can't negotiate with someone who is holding a gun to your head. That's essentially what's been going on for a long time.

Ford realizes it's time to put an end to it. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but it really is a "bold" move...

[Extreme4x4]

In an uncertain world, that an entity (UAW) would reject a contract, partially over the lack of guarantees and names of product, in assinine of the largest nature.

That the UAW expects guarantees, just shows how out of touch they are. They live in this isolated, "we have the power because we are the UAW" world, that just does not exist.

While it will not happen quickly, as nothing does in the automotive world................ expect to see a slow movement of product out of the US. The CAW saw their chance, and took it. Thus, it is not out of the realm of possibility that more work will move to Canada.

[SwampFoxZ71]

Originally Posted by throwback

This is precisely why the Government should not be giving tax payer money to bail out private companies. GM and Chrysler have eliminated their debt not through sound business decisions, but due to the largess of the Government. The Government has chosen sides by favoring 2 US companies over a third. As for the UAW, perhaps they have not been paying attention over the last 2 years. Or more likely they expect the government to ride to the rescue again, so why give up anything. The tax payers will fix it.

Actually, the government offered it to Ford too, which refused. The government, knowing GM/Chrysler would have to file, offered the same deal to keep them all in synch. Ford refused and gained the PR benefits from it. Now, and in the near future, their well-thought out plan may turn out to be a short-term win and long-term disaster. Time will tell.