Contest #179: Results & Discussion

[Rex Raider]

Current Contest #179: Results & Discussion

Complete breakdown of results:



Rex Raider gets 1st place!


MonaroSS has 2nd place.


Rex Raider has 2 more entries that TIE FOR 3rd place!

[MonaroSS]

I think you will find that your H entry only had 39.5 votes, as I retracted my votes for it to avoid the conflict that arises out of all contestants having to vote, but not for themselves, while you Rex do not.

I explained it yesterday in a PM to ChevRev....

Interesting thing with the weekly comp, which raises a problem I have in our own monthly comp. I usually wait till the very end to vote in the comps, firstly because while voting is mandatory the rules don't say you have to vote for your nearest competitor and help them win over you. But also because a few people on here have the ability to effect the vote, and I am one of them, Rex and Fbody are two others. If we vote early then it can and does act like a celebrity endorsement, especially if it is close and people can't choose easily.

Take this weeks comp. Instead of waiting as normal, Rex had already PM'd me two pics which he said he was entering, but didn't say he had another 2. So when I saw H, which I thought was quite an avant guard design, I knew (wrongly) that it wasn't Rex or myself and so I broke my usual rule and gave H 3 points early to encourage what appeared to be a new entrant. Turns out that my D was leading in points until Wednesday when what Rex later told me was his H overtook it by 1.5 points.

So I went back and changed my vote, but that's another story. In the reason for editing I put "to remove the conflict of Rex not voting" which is true. If Rex voted he could only vote for me or three others all of whom received less than half my points meaning in a meritorious allocation of Rex’s points I would likely have received 3 or at least 2 of those points.

And that brings me back to my main point. The “celebrity” effect and the “comp official” effect. Rex solves his celebrity and official problem by simply not voting, not in his competition; though other contestants are mandated to vote for him, and he doesn't vote in ours either. I can see his point. But where a conflict occurs due to a close vote it should of course be resolved such that Rex doesn't win by the forced votes of other contestants.

None-the-less my involvement in our monthly comp has now put me in a position where I feel that to vote in a competition I help run doesn't feel right and indeed I didn't vote in some of our recent comps. However, as I enter my own pics I don't want to win by being voted for by other entrants when I deny them my vote. I have mentally determined that I would stand down my place if I won a close race with votes from other contestants, but I think we need a formal policy on this.

As a person involved in running the comp I feel that my endorsing one contestant over another isn't fair and may upset some, and it has a wider effect than just the points I allocate. To demonstrate let me show you the points for H in this weekly comp. Before I voted it got 0.5, 0.5, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 2, 1, 2, then from my vote on it got 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1.

When people can’t decide then they look at what others have voted. The figures seem to clearly indicate that after voters saw my endorsement their voting habits were swayed. The name MonaroSS has an effect on many people on this site when it comes to design. Those that like what I do will look at who I vote for and may be swayed so as to even change the comp outcome.

It is a real dilemma. The answer is for me to not vote, or vote last or vote anonymously. But if I don’t vote then a formal system needs to be published as to how any conflict arising would be resolved. i.e. how I don’t benefit from other entrants votes in a close race. But if I vote last then there is the chance that my vote will be the deciding vote in a close race (even where it’s not a conflict with my own entry) and entrants may be upset if I decide the winner between two of them. Maybe Rex has already thought this through but he hasn’t published it.

I have been thinking about this for several weeks and would appreciate your thoughts. I want to enter the comps so a way to overcome any unfairness and/or conflict of interest is needed. Again, no rush....

[Rex Raider]

I tabulate half of the votes during the week, and the rest early Friday morning. I don't go back to see if anyone changed their votes from earlier in the week. There's no real reason to change your votes after you've voted.

Here is my opinion on the matter:

It's a game. It's all for fun. There are no winners or losers. There's no prizes. There's no rules that really need to be followed. And with less and less entrants each week, it has an even lesser impact on anything. Come on, 4 of the 8 entrants last week, and 2 of the 4 entrants this week are mine. I believe I'm the only one that has never missed a single contest since #1 (over 3 years ago!!!).

I totally understand where you are coming from, and I appreciate you taking the time to write all of that stuff, however, in the end, it really doesn't matter, as long as we all have fun doing this stuff (which at least I do.)
Had your entry come in 1st place, would this whole conversation even be happening?

If anything, I shot myself in the foot by putting in 4 entries. I split the votes among all my entries, where perhaps if I had only placed 1 entry, it would have scored much higher.

Even your own voting was off kilter when you purposely voted for the worst chop, and told me it was a pity vote for that person, when I think in reality, you just didn't want to vote for me. Truth be told, all things being equal, which are honestly the best chops? That's what you should be voting for.

I stopped voting quite a while back, when it was mentioned that my voting is unfair. I didn't choose to stop voting. It was requested of me.

Do certain votes bring more pull? It's possible, but highly doubtful. It could be sheer coincidence that people started giving me higher marks towards the latter half of the competition. People have come from behind before. Look at how many people VIEW the threads, versus how many people actually vote. There is no rhyme nor reason to how things happen.

Again, to recap: It's for fun. We know who does good work, and who doesn't. We want to encourage those to get better. We want to acknowledge the people that consistantly do well.

You have more than your share of podium finishes. Be proud of that. No one is denying your talent. It's all for fun.

[MonaroSS]

Just a few points first.

1. It may have been less embarrassing to tosc to publicly describe my vote for him as an encouragement vote rather than a pity vote.

2. My voting for him had nothing to do with not voting for you as you know that when I voted I thought there were 4 others in addition to tosc that I could have voted for that were not you.

3. I already told you before voting started, after you showed my your two pics, (which as a voter I should not have been shown anyway) that I was not going to vote for you pics. You have won this more than anyone and need no encouragement.

4. While it may be the main reason, there is no requirement for people to vote for the best chop, and they don’t. Often they vote for a bad chop which they find funny or vote for a bad chop that plays to their love of some other thing like a sport etc. And some people like me vote for those they want to encourage. Everyone has different reasons for voting and not voting for different pics, and that’s a good thing.

5. Additional entries can split votes, but mainly when it involves two very similar entries or when entrants are known to voters and they have a fan base that can be split by multiple entries. Otherwise less entries usually result in a normal proportional redistribution over all remaining entries.

6. By definition when you have votes, publish the results and the top three with statements like above “Rex gets 1st Place”, there are indeed winners and losers.

It’s not a game - but it is for fun; and it is also for kudos. I would suggest that all your entrants want to win. And when people want to win then it only remains fun if a clear set of fair rules is followed consistently.

As to those rules, fairness and the appearance of fairness. You ask; “Had your entry come in 1st place, would this whole conversation even be happening?” The answer to that can be found in the answer you give to this question. If I had not even voted, then I would have won even by your count, or would I? If I had have won and not voted what would you have done and why? You state clearly that; “If you enter, you MUST vote. Contestants that do not vote will be penalized.”

If I were running the monthly comp and saw that I won by 1.5 points over another entrant who was required to vote, but where I had not voted, I would have automatically announced them as winner, even if they had not given me 3 points themselves. Just on principle and for appearances……

When I trained in law I was taught that if you hold a position of trust you must not only be just; but be seen to be just.

There may be no prizes at the moment but I have been considering inviting guest photo contributors to your comp such as Richard Ferlazzo (the designer of the Efijy), Jay Leno, Bob Lutz and others I’ve discussed cars with. I have also been discussing bringing in sponsors such as the Photoshop people who could provide winners with free software or upgrades, and others like HP with prizes of scanners/printers etc. With prizes and the knowledge that celebrities will be seeing their work, it may have the effect of attracting a whole lot of entrants - especially if properly promoted.

But before I would do such things and put my personal credibility on the line I would need the competitions to be very professionally and fairly handled and be seen to be so. That is why I was discussing this with ChevRev; and my intention is to have the monthly comps running smoothly in such a fashion.


Others are welcome to toss in ideas and suggestions on this topic if they have them.

[Rex Raider]

I don't necessarily want these contests to be for prizes. That makes it more competition, and less "fun". It's not really up to you to bring in sponsors or guest judges or anything of that nature (at least not without consulting me)

Obviously if we were going to go that way, it would be necessary to revise the rules, etc... This is something that could be discussed, perhaps as a seperate contest on the site, not the regular weekly contests.

I want the regular weekly contests to continually be for fun, so that entrants like TOSC still happen.

As you said, people vote for the chop they like, not necessarily the best chop. Make a Star Wars reference or add in a semi-naked girl, and you're guaranteed to get more votes.

We could change future contests so that people can actually post their entries beforehand, and request comments, so that they can fix their entries, and then post final "good" versions of them. For example, TOSC's entry, he had no idea that the colour of his body kit didn't match the rest of the car (he told me he is color blind). That way he could have redone his entry, and perhaps he would have received more votes.

Whether it's a pity vote or a vote of encouragement, do you really think it makes him feel better that he still ended up in last place, but had 1 3rd-place vote? I would have preferred to see 3 honest votes, and then a line of encouragement, like "A,B,C D: I would have voted for you if your body kit matched in colour" or "E: The idea is great but you need to practice the execution. PM me, and I'll give you some tips."

The results and discussion thread should be the area in which experienced choppers point out the errors of the weaker chops. I notice that most of the time there are no messages in the discussion thread at all, other than a thanks from the winners.

Whenever I notice an obvious mistake in a chop, when it's emailed to me, I respond with my criticism, allowing them to reenter if they desire. It's how I found out that Tosc is color blind.

I think that you should vote for the entries that you like best or that are done the best. Don't vote against people for fear that they will win, and you won't. Best thing is NOT to compile the scores until the very end. Vote without looking at the other votes.

I don't like coming in 2nd place any more than you do. People have a natural tendency to want to be number one. But when I know there's nothing at stake, I don't mind not even having a podium finish (like 2 weeks ago).

I would love to see everyone's skills get better making it even harder for you and I to constantly finish in the top-3. I would also like to see more entrants each week. The only reason I do multiple chops is to give people more opportunity to vote. If there are only 2 entries, the contests will end. We need to encourage people to participate, and it's not by giving them votes for entries that don't deserve them.

There's another website I go to (www.worth1000.com) which has daily contests, almost all of them non-car related. You have to pay (only 10 cents) to submit an entry over there. Again there are no prizes, only virtual trophies. As good a chopper as I am over here at GMI, I'm mediocre over there. They are much more critical. But I still participate when there's a theme that I like.

Again, I like the idea that this is solely for fun.
I don't think that we should do away with the voting, because that's the only way to get feedback.
I much prefer the posts from people where they justify their votes (with comments), rather than just posting the 1,2,3 order.

In regards to winners and losers, if you (not speaking to you specifically) consider yourself a loser for not having a podium finish, then perhaps these contests aren't for you. I don't want anyone taking this that seriously.

Perhaps as an aside, we can have seperate head-to-head challenges, where people of similar chopping skills can face off against each other either for real bragging rights or for actual prizes. Where 2 weaker choppers can challenge each other, and not have to worry about getting destroyed by someone like us.

It would certainly be easy enough for me to add a new subforum for head to head challenges.

[camaroman22]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

I think you will find that your H entry only had 39.5 votes, as I retracted my votes for it to avoid the conflict that arises out of all contestants having to vote, but not for themselves, while you Rex do not.

I explained it yesterday in a PM to ChevRev....

Interesting thing with the weekly comp, which raises a problem I have in our own monthly comp. I usually wait till the very end to vote in the comps, firstly because while voting is mandatory the rules don't say you have to vote for your nearest competitor and help them win over you. But also because a few people on here have the ability to effect the vote, and I am one of them, Rex and Fbody are two others. If we vote early then it can and does act like a celebrity endorsement, especially if it is close and people can't choose easily.

Take this weeks comp. Instead of waiting as normal, Rex had already PM'd me two pics which he said he was entering, but didn't say he had another 2. So when I saw H, which I thought was quite an avant guard design, I knew (wrongly) that it wasn't Rex or myself and so I broke my usual rule and gave H 3 points early to encourage what appeared to be a new entrant. Turns out that my D was leading in points until Wednesday when what Rex later told me was his H overtook it by 1.5 points.

So I went back and changed my vote, but that's another story. In the reason for editing I put "to remove the conflict of Rex not voting" which is true. If Rex voted he could only vote for me or three others all of whom received less than half my points meaning in a meritorious allocation of Rex’s points I would likely have received 3 or at least 2 of those points.

And that brings me back to my main point. The “celebrity” effect and the “comp official” effect. Rex solves his celebrity and official problem by simply not voting, not in his competition; though other contestants are mandated to vote for him, and he doesn't vote in ours either. I can see his point. But where a conflict occurs due to a close vote it should of course be resolved such that Rex doesn't win by the forced votes of other contestants.

None-the-less my involvement in our monthly comp has now put me in a position where I feel that to vote in a competition I help run doesn't feel right and indeed I didn't vote in some of our recent comps. However, as I enter my own pics I don't want to win by being voted for by other entrants when I deny them my vote. I have mentally determined that I would stand down my place if I won a close race with votes from other contestants, but I think we need a formal policy on this.

As a person involved in running the comp I feel that my endorsing one contestant over another isn't fair and may upset some, and it has a wider effect than just the points I allocate. To demonstrate let me show you the points for H in this weekly comp. Before I voted it got 0.5, 0.5, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 2, 1, 2, then from my vote on it got 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1.

When people can’t decide then they look at what others have voted. The figures seem to clearly indicate that after voters saw my endorsement their voting habits were swayed. The name MonaroSS has an effect on many people on this site when it comes to design. Those that like what I do will look at who I vote for and may be swayed so as to even change the comp outcome.

It is a real dilemma. The answer is for me to not vote, or vote last or vote anonymously. But if I don’t vote then a formal system needs to be published as to how any conflict arising would be resolved. i.e. how I don’t benefit from other entrants votes in a close race. But if I vote last then there is the chance that my vote will be the deciding vote in a close race (even where it’s not a conflict with my own entry) and entrants may be upset if I decide the winner between two of them. Maybe Rex has already thought this through but he hasn’t published it.

I have been thinking about this for several weeks and would appreciate your thoughts. I want to enter the comps so a way to overcome any unfairness and/or conflict of interest is needed. Again, no rush....

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Just a few points first.

1. It may have been less embarrassing to tosc to publicly describe my vote for him as an encouragement vote rather than a pity vote.

2. My voting for him had nothing to do with not voting for you as you know that when I voted I thought there were 4 others in addition to tosc that I could have voted for that were not you.

3. I already told you before voting started, after you showed my your two pics, (which as a voter I should not have been shown anyway) that I was not going to vote for you pics. You have won this more than anyone and need no encouragement.

4. While it may be the main reason, there is no requirement for people to vote for the best chop, and they don’t. Often they vote for a bad chop which they find funny or vote for a bad chop that plays to their love of some other thing like a sport etc. And some people like me vote for those they want to encourage. Everyone has different reasons for voting and not voting for different pics, and that’s a good thing.

5. Additional entries can split votes, but mainly when it involves two very similar entries or when entrants are known to voters and they have a fan base that can be split by multiple entries. Otherwise less entries usually result in a normal proportional redistribution over all remaining entries.

6. By definition when you have votes, publish the results and the top three with statements like above “Rex gets 1st Place”, there are indeed winners and losers.

It’s not a game - but it is for fun; and it is also for kudos. I would suggest that all your entrants want to win. And when people want to win then it only remains fun if a clear set of fair rules is followed consistently.

As to those rules, fairness and the appearance of fairness. You ask; “Had your entry come in 1st place, would this whole conversation even be happening?” The answer to that can be found in the answer you give to this question. If I had not even voted, then I would have won even by your count, or would I? If I had have won and not voted what would you have done and why? You state clearly that; “If you enter, you MUST vote. Contestants that do not vote will be penalized.”

If I were running the monthly comp and saw that I won by 1.5 points over another entrant who was required to vote, but where I had not voted, I would have automatically announced them as winner, even if they had not given me 3 points themselves. Just on principle and for appearances……

When I trained in law I was taught that if you hold a position of trust you must not only be just; but be seen to be just.

There may be no prizes at the moment but I have been considering inviting guest photo contributors to your comp such as Richard Ferlazzo (the designer of the Efijy), Jay Leno, Bob Lutz and others I’ve discussed cars with. I have also been discussing bringing in sponsors such as the Photoshop people who could provide winners with free software or upgrades, and others like HP with prizes of scanners/printers etc. With prizes and the knowledge that celebrities will be seeing their work, it may have the effect of attracting a whole lot of entrants - especially if properly promoted.

But before I would do such things and put my personal credibility on the line I would need the competitions to be very professionally and fairly handled and be seen to be so. That is why I was discussing this with ChevRev; and my intention is to have the monthly comps running smoothly in such a fashion.

Others are welcome to toss in ideas and suggestions on this topic if they have them.

being a vet of both the weekly and monthly contests, i appreciate your enthusaiasm in typing an ungodly amount of words, but dude wtf are you talking about

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by camaroman22

being a vet of both the weekly and monthly contests, i appreciate your enthusaiasm in typing an ungodly amount of words, but dude wtf are you talking about

Nice to see you haven't lost your petty animosity...

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by Rex Raider

I don't necessarily want these contests to be for prizes. That makes it more competition, and less "fun". It's not really up to you to bring in sponsors or guest judges or anything of that nature (at least not without consulting me)

Obviously if we were going to go that way, it would be necessary to revise the rules, etc... This is something that could be discussed, perhaps as a seperate contest on the site, not the regular weekly contests.

I want the regular weekly contests to continually be for fun, so that entrants like TOSC still happen.

As you said, people vote for the chop they like, not necessarily the best chop. Make a Star Wars reference or add in a semi-naked girl, and you're guaranteed to get more votes.

We could change future contests so that people can actually post their entries beforehand, and request comments, so that they can fix their entries, and then post final "good" versions of them. For example, TOSC's entry, he had no idea that the colour of his body kit didn't match the rest of the car (he told me he is color blind). That way he could have redone his entry, and perhaps he would have received more votes.

Whether it's a pity vote or a vote of encouragement, do you really think it makes him feel better that he still ended up in last place, but had 1 3rd-place vote? I would have preferred to see 3 honest votes, and then a line of encouragement, like "A,B,C D: I would have voted for you if your body kit matched in colour" or "E: The idea is great but you need to practice the execution. PM me, and I'll give you some tips."

The results and discussion thread should be the area in which experienced choppers point out the errors of the weaker chops. I notice that most of the time there are no messages in the discussion thread at all, other than a thanks from the winners.

Whenever I notice an obvious mistake in a chop, when it's emailed to me, I respond with my criticism, allowing them to reenter if they desire. It's how I found out that Tosc is color blind.

I think that you should vote for the entries that you like best or that are done the best. Don't vote against people for fear that they will win, and you won't. Best thing is NOT to compile the scores until the very end. Vote without looking at the other votes.

I don't like coming in 2nd place any more than you do. People have a natural tendency to want to be number one. But when I know there's nothing at stake, I don't mind not even having a podium finish (like 2 weeks ago).

I would love to see everyone's skills get better making it even harder for you and I to constantly finish in the top-3. I would also like to see more entrants each week. The only reason I do multiple chops is to give people more opportunity to vote. If there are only 2 entries, the contests will end. We need to encourage people to participate, and it's not by giving them votes for entries that don't deserve them.

There's another website I go to (www.worth1000.com) which has daily contests, almost all of them non-car related. You have to pay (only 10 cents) to submit an entry over there. Again there are no prizes, only virtual trophies. As good a chopper as I am over here at GMI, I'm mediocre over there. They are much more critical. But I still participate when there's a theme that I like.

Again, I like the idea that this is solely for fun.
I don't think that we should do away with the voting, because that's the only way to get feedback.
I much prefer the posts from people where they justify their votes (with comments), rather than just posting the 1,2,3 order.

In regards to winners and losers, if you (not speaking to you specifically) consider yourself a loser for not having a podium finish, then perhaps these contests aren't for you. I don't want anyone taking this that seriously.

Perhaps as an aside, we can have seperate head-to-head challenges, where people of similar chopping skills can face off against each other either for real bragging rights or for actual prizes. Where 2 weaker choppers can challenge each other, and not have to worry about getting destroyed by someone like us.

It would certainly be easy enough for me to add a new subforum for head to head challenges.

Well it's your call, but along with the prizes would have come money to help pay for better servers and stuff like that which the site needs badly.

You're probably correct in that I enjoy and get fun out of competition, just like millions of amateur sportsmen and women every week. We enjoy trying to improve ourselves and win. So perhaps this isn't the best forum for me. Someone read your comments and invited me to join them, so maybe it's time for a break from here. I'll email in my last pic this week. Maybe if you took a break too and others thought they could actually win that would see more entrants. Perhaps we are the problem?

[asim]

Congrats to all!

[Rex Raider]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Well it's your call, but along with the prizes would have come money to help pay for better servers and stuff like that which the site needs badly.

You're probably correct in that I enjoy and get fun out of competition, just like millions of amateur sportsmen and women every week. We enjoy trying to improve ourselves and win. So perhaps this isn't the best forum for me. Someone read your comments and invited me to join them, so maybe it's time for a break from here. I'll email in my last pic this week. Maybe if you took a break too and others thought they could actually win that would see more entrants. Perhaps we are the problem?

I wouldn't want to see you go. There's no reason that you can't participate on more than 1 site. If you want to take a break, go ahead. I'll keep things going while you're gone.

I have had no complaints from the others. I have had no one suggesting an "amateur" and a "pro" contest either (this could be an idea). Yes, overall participation is down, but I've also done nothing to bring new people in. We make no mention of it on the main page like we used to. Maybe I'll start advertising the contests.

[camaroman22]

Originally Posted by Rex Raider

I wouldn't want to see you go. There's no reason that you can't participate on more than 1 site. If you want to take a break, go ahead. I'll keep things going while you're gone.

as a matter of fact i'm on somewhat of a break myself. i did a colorado entry though but never got it in, and i'm not sure if i even saved it...

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Nice to see you haven't lost your petty animosity...

valid, but my first comment wasn't too far off. since there is no real prize to strive for, aside from the recognition and knowing that you've achieved some level of skill in chopping, less experienced choppers have more of a chance. if there were some prize every contest then all the great gmi choppers would be competing hard and often. but if there's all those high quality chops from the vets there's also a lesser chance of younger, newer choppers winning, and therefore a lesser chance that any would even show up. although a prize would be motivation for some to get better and attempt to overthrow the big boys, it's not too realistic of a vision.

as i said before though, your enthusiasm via ungodly amount of words is appreciated, and i'll try to cut down on the petty animosity.