Alignment Question

[redstuff]

Ok, not being a mechanic I don't know this answer so bear with me. My question is do all cars need a "4 wheel alignment"? The dealer across the street says they do. I asked why? I replaced the struts in my car (with the help of a friend) and as far as I can tell, there's 3 bolts on top, the big mother at the bottom, and a couple little ones holding the brake lines & the stabilizer bar. There's no room for movement left, right, sideways, up or down...they bolt in one way, and one way only. He tells me there are "shims" and "YOU won't see them" (in a negatively conotated sort of way - like I'm a complete idiot, and maybe I am - he could really take a course on how to deal with people). "The wheels have to come off" etc.
So, they (these shims) would't have fallen out when we did the struts? I mean the wheels had to come off for that too. The only reason I was asking him was because I wanted to know what a 2 wheel alignment cost since it would appear to this 'idiot' that my car doesn't need all 4 done. The back only follow along one way and I didn't see any way at all you could adjust them for camber or whatever. Nor did my friend and he is fairly mechanically inclined.

Just wondering...

Thanks.

[jkennedy293]

I had a similar issue when I took my car in for an alignment after buying tires. The rear was out of adjustment, but the only way to adjust it is to add a shim kit. I don't believe the cars come from the factory with the shims, but as it goes out of spec from use they must be added to put it back into spec. I don't think he is trying to rip you off, but he could have phrased his position better.

[61BelAir]

Originally Posted by redstuff

Ok, not being a mechanic I don't know this answer so bear with me. My question is do all cars need a "4 wheel alignment"? The dealer across the street says they do. I asked why? I replaced the struts in my car (with the help of a friend) and as far as I can tell, there's 3 bolts on top, the big mother at the bottom, and a couple little ones holding the brake lines & the stabilizer bar. There's no room for movement left, right, sideways, up or down...they bolt in one way, and one way only. He tells me there are "shims" and "YOU won't see them" (in a negatively conotated sort of way - like I'm a complete idiot, and maybe I am - he could really take a course on how to deal with people). "The wheels have to come off" etc.
So, they (these shims) would't have fallen out when we did the struts? I mean the wheels had to come off for that too. The only reason I was asking him was because I wanted to know what a 2 wheel alignment cost since it would appear to this 'idiot' that my car doesn't need all 4 done. The back only follow along one way and I didn't see any way at all you could adjust them for camber or whatever. Nor did my friend and he is fairly mechanically inclined.

Just wondering...

Thanks.

What kind of vehicle is this?

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

Yeah usually the rear axle especially on FWD cars with a beam axle type rear suspension don't have any kind of alignment possibility. Of course you could fit shims if it is out of whack but that shouldn't be necessary.

Some do have an adjustment, like on the back of a GM W-body there are tie-rods in the back... I want to just get an extra steering rack and install it so I could have a 4 wheel steering Wbody...

[BigAls87Z28]

First off, what kind of car?
Can you just get away with a 2 wheel alignment? Sure. Or you could go to a shop that has one price for alignments instead of some shops that have 5-6 prices. Therefor you are getting all 4 wheels done for a lot less then what most shops do for 4 wheels, but a little more then what they might do for 2.
When you replace struts, its is a good idea to have the alignment checked and adjusted. Struts are an integeral part of the suspension where shock's are just there to absorb road variations.
Your alignment could be out already, so its a good idea.
What kind of car do you have, and that can give us a better idea. A lot of FWD cars have 4 wheel adjustments.

[61BelAir]

I will assume you are talking about the 2000 Taurus. The front strut tower has an alignment plate on it and to adjust camber you simply drill out the spot welds. Once the plate is loose you can adjust caster and camber. There are aftermarket plates available as well for a larger adjustment range.

The rear is not a twist/torsion beam, it does have OE toe adjustment but no Camber adjust. There are Camber kits(eccentric bushings) that are available for the rear if necessary.

Unless the car was lowered or crashed I wouldn't think you would need to adjust the camber front or rear, most people set the toe and go!

[redstuff]

Originally Posted by 61BelAir

What kind of vehicle is this?

Sorry...guess I coulda mentioned that. It's a Ford Taurus. Low tech rear end. Torsion bars (I believe - I'm gonna run with that) a stabilzer bar and 2 struts with springs. Unless you can adjust the wheel mount itself I don't see how or where you could adjust or install the shims. The strut goes in, and being new (springs and all) put everything back in spec as per new (lifted the rear end 2-3 inches! Man were they shot!). Maybe it was more his approach, and maybe he doesn't know Fords (I usually go across the street as they're right there, but it is a GM dealer)...I thought I was asking a legitimate question, having just done them myself and not being able to see how on earth you could possibly do all 4 in an alignment. It's not like the cost was all that much - $69 for an alignment...I just wanted to know why they'd do 4 if all it needed was 2...and he made me sound/feel like an idiot. Which is great, if I really am...but maybe that's only because I keep going back! (Sometimes I think he's still pissed at me 'cause they screwed up on a car I had 3-4 years ago - a 6 hr job took them 11-12, and then they had to do it again because they forgot something - replace all belts when doing timing belt - not just timing belt, and I even paid for half that screw up! Not their fault he said. And they keep forgetting to put my oil cap on after an oil change...3 times now...not my fault.)

[redstuff]

Dang you're good...and I'm darn slow!!

[RoGuE]

The rear of a Taurus is not torsion bars. It is fully independent.

And it sounds like you need to find a new place if they forget to put on your oil cap 3 times.

[MonaroSS]

My family has had a specialist suspension and alignment business started by my father for coming up 50 years, and a cousin still operates it to this day. I grew up with the intricacies of not just normal alignment but post crash repair problems, custom cars and racing suspensions.

You generally only need a 4-wheel alignment when you have a problem that cannot be corrected by a front wheel alignment. Often you can set up a car to fall exactly within the specified ranges and the car handles like crap, pulls, wears tires, etc. A good alignment specialist will check the tire wear and drive the car first and diagnose if it has any obvious handling issues, and then will check the cars specs to see if it's camber, caster and toe-in are within spec at the front. If they are within spec and there are no handling issues, that's usually the end of it.

However the world isn't that simple and often a car can be within spec but have an issue. Unless the car has just been in a major accident or had suspension repairs on it's rear end then the rear suspension is the last place you look to solve the problem, but there can be rear alignment problems. However most problems will be bad tires or a bent body frame from an accident or hitting a big pothole etc before the rear is a problem.

Yes these days there is few built in adjustments and so shims are often used and you may well not see them. And sometimes, to fix a bad alignment problem due to a bent frame, people may even oval those three bolt holes at the top of the strut and relocate it in the appropriate direction. But I have to ask the question - did you even touch the rear suspension? And does the car even have any tire wear or steering issues? Also you should say what the car is and its suspension set-up if you need specific advice.

So in the absence of specifics, no you don't need a 4 wheel alignment unless there is a specific issue that warrants it, like the car crabs down the road, or the front has a steering issue which can't be traced to bad specs, bad tires (swapping them around will usually show that up) or frame damage.

Hope that helps, if you need more then give me the details.

[redstuff]

Thanks guys...even though I know I know nothing (hence I probably am somewhat of a mechanical idiot - I'll admit that! See torsion bar comment above.) I appreciate not being condescended (is that a word?! Spell it right?) to. It is a Taurus, MonaroSS, I just forgot to be specific, normally I am...maybe too much so. The only thing we touched was changing the struts and putting new links on - the right side did have a busted spring (ya'd think they'd notice that when they do a service job, no?), and that tire is definitely worn on the inside, but now it stands stright and tall like it's supposed to.

Being in a small town they're the only game in town - even the Ford dealer takes their stuff there for alignments. I doubt they take it for a drive before hand. At $69 that's less than the hourly shop rate so they'd want it up and out ASAP. Test drive shmest drive!

[RoGuE]

Understandable. For what it is worth, Taurus rear wheels have very little alignment capability. In fact, what some people do is repalce the rear suspension with a certain GM control arm since it is more adjustable. A good site to go to for maintenance questions is www.taurusclub.com/forum. I'm on there too, even though I don't own a Taurus anymore. (I had a 1996)

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah, Taurus is a toe-n-go.
Most auto service places will do alignments for one price, be it 2 or 4 wheel adjustments.

[Triple-X08]

you can adjust the alignment on any vehicle. and yes you should have one done after replacing struts.

even with rear struts on a fwd, you sometimes have to elongate the strut mount holes at the bottom where it bolts to the knuckle. same for fronts.

all cars have adjustment, even solid axle. just in a different way.

most front wheel drive vehicles, you have to adjust front camber and caster with the front subframe. on fwd drive cars with independant rear suspension, you adjust camber by elongating the holes in the struts, or in some cases with shims, not usually though.
sometimes you have a slotted hole that you can adjust stuff with, and alot of times, they use cam adjusters, like the malibu, it uses cam adjusters for the rear adjustment of camber and toe.

it is different for each vehicle, sometimes its easy to adjust, sometimes it sucks.

if anything the guy at the dealer doesnt know what hes talking about, shims havent been used in years. unless you get a old car or truck that uses them for the front end.

the only place you use shims now, is in the rear of solid axle vehicles. which sucks because you have to unbolt the entire braking system and hub assembly, the shim slides between the hub and axle flange, and you have to increase or adjust the shims to get what you want out of it.

[Triple-X08]

you can tell what needs to be adjusted just by driving the car, and by inspecting the tires. you can tell what parts of the alignment are out of whack, be it toe or camber, or incorrect air pressures, lack of rotation, etc... alignments are like art. you have something blank or really messed up, and you turn it into something amazing.

there is a difference between a good alignment and a alignment.

anyone can slap a car on a rack and say, yep needs toe n go, but its the extra effort of all the pre alignment steps, and measurements and inspections that make the car drive that much better. and keeps customers happy.