2002 Grand Am no start

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Thread: 2002 Grand Am no start

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    2002 Grand Am no start

    2002 Grand Am V6.

    Happened late last Sunday night. Drove the car after cold start 15 mins to Fairlanes and was in there for about an hour.

    Came out, put the key in and cranked. Let it go before it started because I was paying attention to something else. Tried again and car would just crank and crank. First thing I notice is there is dead silence from the fuel pump whenever I'm turning the ignition on. So I get out and under the tank with a hammer while someone else cranks. Nothing.

    Open the hood and pull out the fuel pump relay from the fuse block. Doesn't smell burned so I put it back in.

    So, I sat down for a few minutes and thought about my next move. All in all, about 10-15 minutes passed since the last crank attempt. I decide to give it one more try. I hear the fuel pump energize as soon as I turn it and the car starts no problem.

    Next day, car starts fine again so I go to work. At lunch, I haul out the AVR machine on a hunch and test the battery. Battery drops to 10.06 volts under load and obviously tests bad.

    We had a Malibu in the shop one time that kept going into theft mode and we couldn't figure it why. We sent it to the dealer and they cited the battery as being the cause. They said when the volts drop to 10.5 or lower when cranking, the car can enter theft mode.

    So I put a new battery in and haven't had a problem in a week.

    My question is does that ring true with you real GM techs in here?

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    I've heard this...I will try to find documentation for this theory, if I can when I'm back in store.

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    GMI Staff Member Premium Member shadams's Avatar
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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Quote Originally Posted by W.A.F.U.
    2002 Grand Am V6.

    Happened late last Sunday night. Drove the car after cold start 15 mins to Fairlanes and was in there for about an hour.

    Came out, put the key in and cranked. Let it go before it started because I was paying attention to something else. Tried again and car would just crank and crank. First thing I notice is there is dead silence from the fuel pump whenever I'm turning the ignition on. So I get out and under the tank with a hammer while someone else cranks. Nothing.

    Open the hood and pull out the fuel pump relay from the fuse block. Doesn't smell burned so I put it back in.

    So, I sat down for a few minutes and thought about my next move. All in all, about 10-15 minutes passed since the last crank attempt. I decide to give it one more try. I hear the fuel pump energize as soon as I turn it and the car starts no problem.

    Next day, car starts fine again so I go to work. At lunch, I haul out the AVR machine on a hunch and test the battery. Battery drops to 10.06 volts under load and obviously tests bad.

    We had a Malibu in the shop one time that kept going into theft mode and we couldn't figure it why. We sent it to the dealer and they cited the battery as being the cause. They said when the volts drop to 10.5 or lower when cranking, the car can enter theft mode.

    So I put a new battery in and haven't had a problem in a week.

    My question is does that ring true with you real GM techs in here?
    Well, in theory all the electrical components require 12v to operate correctly, so yea I guess it could happen. But in experience with the Grand Am's its usually not that cut and dry. The passlock sensor on the ignition cylinder is usually the culprit, but it always has to come back about 10 times before we can duplicate it in the shop. BUT, common sense tells me that if it did it often before and hasnt done it since the battery was replaced, you may have solved it. If the passlock is the problem there is usually codes set in the bcm. Good luck.
    "Contrary to common belief, planning is complicated and is not run by complete idiots, so you'll just have to trust that the decisions were made on good information that's not made available to you."

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Arghhh! I spoke too soon. I came out of work today and started the car. Within 3 seconds, it died out. I turned the key to off then back to run to listen for the fuel pump and there was nothing. So I turned the key back to off and waited a couple of minutes. Turned the key to on, heard the pump and cranked. No problem.

    So I went inside and hooked up the Genesis to check for codes. None.

    The car was started at 6 different occasions today and only once had the problem.

    I'm leaning toward the ignition cylinder as well. Opinions?

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Quote Originally Posted by GMCSonoma
    I've heard this...I will try to find documentation for this theory, if I can when I'm back in store.
    I can't find documentation, but my techs agree with this.


    As far as the intermittant no start....I'd venture a guess at the lock cylinder/pass lock sensor.

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    GMI Staff Member Premium Member shadams's Avatar
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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Well this is what I meant by "not so cut and dry" The vehicle has a ignition cylinder (where you put your key in) and an ignition switch which is under the dash. The cylinder sends a signal to the switch to power up all the other items, such as bcm, which I believe houses the security system and fuse block (which houses the relay for and powers the fuel pump.) What seems to be happening is the fuel pump is being disabled by the security system (which would usually set codes) but may not be getting a signal from the ignition switch due to a bad switch, or the ignition switch may be not be getting a signal from the cylinder. Its alot of hassle or sometimes even impossible to determine unless the vehicle is completely dead (wont start). The nightmare grand am we had doing the same thing ended up being neither part, it had a broken wire inside the insulation on a wire from the passlock sensor.
    "Contrary to common belief, planning is complicated and is not run by complete idiots, so you'll just have to trust that the decisions were made on good information that's not made available to you."

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    The problem escalated today on the way home from work. Travelling at 30-35mph and the engine just died. Managed to get it pulled into a parking lot with the momentum and I tried restarting every couple of minutes. After about 10 minutes, it restarted and drove home no problem. Again, the fuel pump could not be heard when trying to start it. I didn't even bother cranking till I heard the pump.

    I didn't think the anti-theft could disable the car once it's been successfully started. Am I wrong?

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Correct....I'd venture a guess towards the fuel pump...

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Quote Originally Posted by W.A.F.U.
    The problem escalated today on the way home from work. Travelling at 30-35mph and the engine just died. Managed to get it pulled into a parking lot with the momentum and I tried restarting every couple of minutes. After about 10 minutes, it restarted and drove home no problem. Again, the fuel pump could not be heard when trying to start it. I didn't even bother cranking till I heard the pump.

    I didn't think the anti-theft could disable the car once it's been successfully started. Am I wrong?
    Yea, I agree. If the car is already running, and the problem has occured without setting codes, I'd guess a fuel pump as well. If you have a fuel pressure gauge i'd tape it to the windshield so you can watch the fuel pressure while driving as well as a test light at the pump power wire. If the light goes out the same time as the fuel pressure, you know its an electrical problem, if just fuel pressure goes than you know the pump is shot.
    "Contrary to common belief, planning is complicated and is not run by complete idiots, so you'll just have to trust that the decisions were made on good information that's not made available to you."

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Well, we found a code today when I got somebody who knows more about the Genesis scan tool to do it. A code was stored for no oil pressure. Of course, if this were true, my engine would have been cooked by now. If the PCM reads no oil pressure from the switch, is there a safety shut down mode to prevent engine damage?

    We did run a pressure and voltage test on the pump which turned out to be within specs.

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DTC P1189
    Circuit Description
    The engine oil pressure switch closes and the signal circuit is low with low oil pressure. The engine oil pressure switch opens and signal circuit is high with oil pressure above 4.5 psi. The PCM monitors the oil pressure switch signal circuit and sends a class 2 message to the body control module (BCM) indicating the switch status. The BCM sends a message via the class 2 serial data circuit to the IPC in order to illuminate the low oil pressure indicator.

    Conditions for Running the DTC
    • The following DTCs are not set:

    - P0117

    - P0118

    - P1111

    - P1114

    • The ignition is ON, with the engine OFF.

    • The engine temperature is 10°C (50°F) less than the last key OFF temperature.

    Conditions for Setting the DTC
    • The PCM detects that the oil pressure switch signal circuit is high.

    • The above condition is present for greater than 10 seconds.

    Action Taken When the DTC Sets
    The PCM stores the conditions that are present when the DTC sets as Failure Records data only. This information is not stored as Freeze Frame data.

    Conditions for Clearing the DTC
    • The DTC becomes history when then conditions for setting the DTC are no longer present.

    • The history DTC clears after 40 malfunction free warm-up cycles.

    • The PCM receives the clear code command from the scan tool.

    Step
    Action
    Yes
    No

    Schematic Reference: Instrument Cluster Schematics

    1
    Did you perform the Instrument Cluster Diagnostic System Check?
    Go to Step 2
    Go to Diagnostic System Check - Instrument Cluster

    2
    Install a scan tool.
    Turn the ignition ON, with the engine OFF.
    With a scan tool, observe the Engine Oil Pressure Switch parameter in the PCM Engine 3 Data list - 2.2L or Engine 2 Data list - 3.4L.
    Does the Engine Oil Pressure Switch parameter display Low?
    Go to Testing for Intermittent Conditions and Poor Connections in Wiring Systems
    Go to Step 3

    3
    Turn the ignition OFF.
    Disconnect the engine oil pressure switch.
    Connect a fused jumper wire between the oil pressure switch signal circuit and a good ground.
    Turn the ignition ON, with the engine OFF.
    With a scan tool, observe the Engine Oil Pressure Switch parameter in the PCM Engine 3 Data list 2.2L or Engine 2 Data list 3.4L.
    Does the Engine Oil Pressure Switch parameter display Low?
    Go to Step 5
    Go to Step 4

    4
    Test the signal circuit of the engine oil pressure switch for an open, for a high resistance, or for a short to voltage. Refer to Circuit Testing and to Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.

    Did you find and correct the condition?
    Go to Step 10
    Go to Step 7

    5
    Test the case ground of the engine oil pressure switch for a high resistance or for a poor connection. Refer Testing for Intermittent Conditions and Poor Connections in Wiring Systems.

    Did you find and correct the condition?
    Go to Step 10
    Go to Step 6

    6
    Inspect for poor connections at the harness connector of the engine oil pressure switch. Refer to Testing for Intermittent Conditions and Poor Connections and to Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.

    Did you find and correct the condition?
    Go to Step 10
    Go to Step 8

    7
    Inspect for poor connections at the harness connector of the PCM. Refer to Testing for Intermittent Conditions and Poor Connections and to Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.

    Did you find and correct the condition?
    Go to Step 10
    Go to Step 9

    8
    Replace the engine oil pressure switch. Refer to Engine Oil Pressure Sensor and/or Switch Replacement in Engine Mechanical - 2.2L or to Engine Oil Pressure Sensor and/or Switch Replacement in Engine Mechanical - 3.4L.

    Did you complete the replacement?
    Go to Step 10
    --

    9
    Important: Program the replacement PCM.


    Replace the PCM. Refer to Powertrain Control Module (PCM) Replacement in Engine Controls - 2.2L or to Powertrain Control Module (PCM) Replacement in Engine Controls - 3.4L.

    Did you complete the replacement?
    Go to Step 10
    --

    10
    Use the scan tool in order to clear the DTCs.
    Operate the vehicle within the Conditions for Running the DTC as specified in the supporting text.
    Does the DTC reset?
    Go to Step 2
    System OK

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Ok, from the sounds of that, we may be looking for a bad body control module then?

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Went out to start the car this morning. Took me three times to get it started as it died out quickly after the first two. Here's the strange part, I heard the fuel pump loud and clear before every crank.

    This is getting frusterating.

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    No security light flashing, no security codes stored.

    I stopped to get gas this afternoon and the car would not restart. I waited a half an hour trying every 5 minutes to get it started. Can't hear the fuel pump at all now. I can hear an electronic sounding noise about a second long from the rear of the car everytime I turn the key to run and again when I turn it back to off.

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    Re: 2002 Grand Am no start

    Quote Originally Posted by W.A.F.U.
    Went out to start the car this morning. Took me three times to get it started as it died out quickly after the first two. Here's the strange part, I heard the fuel pump loud and clear before every crank.

    This is getting frusterating.
    Well, I dont know if this already came up, but what do you do/where do you work. You said you have some diag equipment, are you a tech or do you work at a shop. This type of problem really needs to be at a GM dealer due to all the possiblitys, and equipment needed, but just to correct my previous posts, the fuel pump is in no way affected by the security system, but the fuel injectors or turned off. Here is the correct description of the security system:

    The body control module (BCM) contains the logic of the Theft Deterrent System. The BCM provides the battery positive voltage to operate the Passlock™ sensor.(which is in the ignition cylinder case) The BCM also measures the voltage of the security sensor signal circuit. The voltage measured will indicate whether the Passlock™ sensor has been activated and whether the resistance value from the sensor is a valid value or the tamper value. If voltage measured is in the valid range, the BCM compares this voltage, voltage code, to a previously learned voltage code. If the voltage codes match, the BCM sends a class 2 message containing a password to the powertrain control module (PCM). If the voltage codes do not match, or the voltage is in the tamper range, or there is a circuit fault, the BCM will not send the correct password to the PCM, and the vehicle will not start.

    Powertrain Control Module
    The powertrain control module (PCM) contains the remainder of the logic of the Theft Deterrent System. If a class 2 message containing a valid password is received from the body control module (BCM), the PCM will continue to allow the fuel injectors to operate. The PCM will allow the fuel injectors to operate until it decides there is no valid password coming from the BCM. If the PCM does not receive a class 2 message, or receives a class 2 message with an incorrect password, the engine will crank and will not run or will start and stall immediately.(does this mean it could die while driving if bad signal recieved? Hmmm)
    What its saying is the BCM, ignition cylinder/passlock sensor or wiring in between the two or wiring (class 2 circut) from the bcm to pcm could cause your problem.

    If any of these parts are replaced, a learn procedure must be performed which can only be done with a tech 2.
    Last edited by shadams; 11-11-2005 at 02:59 PM.
    "Contrary to common belief, planning is complicated and is not run by complete idiots, so you'll just have to trust that the decisions were made on good information that's not made available to you."

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