My review: 2010 Toyota Prius

[goblue]

Originally Posted by bradyholt

No one is denying that the Volt will sell. But the Volt will sell at the same time the Prius continues to sell.

Initially, of course the VOLT isn't going to outsell the Prius. GM is going slow and mitigating risk with a brand new powertrain. Just like Toyota did with the Gen I Prius. Funny how many of you forget that.

Over time however, VOLTEC - in all its iterations - is a huge threat to HSD. It's a better design that's more efficient, elegant, better NVH, and discounting battery cost may even cost less to produce than HSD.

Remember, nothing stopping GM in future years from decreasing batt size or increasing range on the same pack or both and there could be dramatic swings in price. GM will charge what the market will bear for the sales volume they want. For 10K sales of a brand new powertrain that's truly revolutionary - 40K is just fine.

[goblue]

FINALLY. Someone who admits this...Your stock just went up in my book Brady.

Originally Posted by BradyHolt

And if you drive it just like any other car, you won’t likely get phenomenal gas mileage.

But even the outgoing Prius responded especially well to drivers who adapted to it, driving gently to accelerate on battery power without using gasoline or using the “pulse-and-glide” method of giving a punch of acceleration and then letting the car cruise its way back down. Any car, of course, would see decreased fuel usage under this sort of gentle behavior, but with the benefit of the gas-free electric ability, the Prius magnified these mileage gains.

If you don't plan on driving conservatively, then you won't see the MPG. For the record, EVs - like the VOLT - don't see as large a drop in efficiency compared to gas engines with more aggressive driving.

[johnstarnes]

Thanks for that review. I like the looks of the new Prius, especially the trippy headlights, but then again I am a long time fan of cab-forward, one-box designs. But I think the Volt looks much better. I'll be curious to see the cDs of each, once GM releases that number.

[ARCANGEL]

Originally Posted by goblue

FINALLY. Someone who admits this...Your stock just went up in my book Brady.



If you don't plan on driving conservatively, then you won't see the MPG. For the record, EVs - like the VOLT - don't see as large a drop in efficiency compared to gas engines with more aggressive driving.

Yea like the guy today hauling a$$ easily over 80mph in his prius. Does he think his mpg is gonna be good?

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by ARCANGEL

Yea like the guy today hauling a$$ easily over 80mph in his prius. Does he think his mpg is gonna be good?

I wonder what mileage he WAS getting while doing that?

[ARCANGEL]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

I wonder what mileage he WAS getting while doing that?

I don't know that would be interesting to know. I bet it was probably in the low 30

[john1701a]

Originally Posted by goblue

Initially, of course the VOLT isn't going to outsell the Prius. GM is going slow and mitigating risk with a brand new powertrain. Just like Toyota did with the Gen I Prius. Funny how many of you forget that.

Perhaps that is because they are well aware of how different the situation is now.

Way back then, no one in the auto industry had experience with batteries & electric motors on that scale. There were only small trials in limited areas of mild climate. The move to worldwide distribution into areas with hostile temperatures was quite new.

Not anymore. GM is constantly reminding us of their fuel-cell advancements, their many models Two-Mode hybrid system, their upcoming new generation of BAS, and how they didn't kill the electric car. In other words, they have lots of experience now.

Having 80 pre-production vehicles already on the road for an entire year before limited rollout begin sends a message subject to question. More and more it looks like GM is struggling to hold on to the "green halo" for Volt. The superior MPG they've promoted is getting pulled into the niche category by a price well beyond that of middle-market vehicles.

Prius appeals to the mainstream, buyers of vehicles who would normally find a Corolla or Camry a good buy. The more we hear about Volt, the less it seems to be seeking that same market.
.

[ARCANGEL]

Originally Posted by john1701a

Perhaps that is because they are well aware of how different the situation is now.

Way back then, no one in the auto industry had experience with batteries & electric motors on that scale. There were only small trials in limited areas of mild climate. The move to worldwide distribution into areas with hostile temperatures was quite new.

Not anymore. GM is constantly reminding us of their fuel-cell advancements, their many models Two-Mode hybrid system, their upcoming new generation of BAS, and how they didn't kill the electric car. In other words, they have lots of experience now.

Having 80 pre-production vehicles already on the road for an entire year before limited rollout begin sends a message subject to question. More and more it looks like GM is struggling to hold on to the "green halo" for Volt. The superior MPG they've promoted is getting pulled into the niche category by a price well beyond that of middle-market vehicles.

Prius appeals to the mainstream, buyers of vehicles who would normally find a Corolla or Camry a good buy. The more we hear about Volt, the less it seems to be seeking that same market.
.

I have to agree John the volt seems like it will be to expensive and not as mass market friendly.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by john1701a

Perhaps that is because they are well aware of how different the situation is now.

Way back then, no one in the auto industry had experience with batteries & electric motors on that scale. There were only small trials in limited areas of mild climate. The move to worldwide distribution into areas with hostile temperatures was quite new.

Not anymore. GM is constantly reminding us of their fuel-cell advancements, their many models Two-Mode hybrid system, their upcoming new generation of BAS, and how they didn't kill the electric car. In other words, they have lots of experience now.

Having 80 pre-production vehicles already on the road for an entire year before limited rollout begin sends a message subject to question. More and more it looks like GM is struggling to hold on to the "green halo" for Volt. The superior MPG they've promoted is getting pulled into the niche category by a price well beyond that of middle-market vehicles.

Prius appeals to the mainstream, buyers of vehicles who would normally find a Corolla or Camry a good buy. The more we hear about Volt, the less it seems to be seeking that same market.
.

If you had any mechanical background at all, you'd understand that the VOLT is a far more complicated problem to solve than the Prius was back in the day. Much of what was learned with parallel hybrids isn't applicable. A range extending system has never been done before.

You would think someone who follows Toyota news would understand how hard of an engineering project this was considering Toyota basically said it couldn't be done.

[john1701a]

Originally Posted by goblue

If you had any mechanical background at all...

Something must be offered for middle-market, which means a large volume & affordable product.

If another is more complex, it still doesn't make any sense to disregard the masses.

What will those consumers (looking for a midsize, midprice) vehicle purchase? Where will the profit to sustain the business come from?
.

[john1701a]

Originally Posted by goblue

...the VOLT is a far more complicated problem to solve than the Prius was back in the day.

Considering the ineffiencies of converting mechanical energy to electricity then back to mechanical again, there are definitely challenges. GM clearly stated repeatedly with Two-Mode the advantages of not having to do that.
.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by john1701a

Something must be offered for middle-market, which means a large volume & affordable product.

If another is more complex, it still doesn't make any sense to disregard the masses.

What will those consumers (looking for a midsize, midprice) vehicle purchase? Where will the profit to sustain the business come from?
.

Sigh. Still coming back to that. Still trying to judge VOLTEC based on one vehicle and the initial launch.

Originally Posted by john1701a

Considering the ineffiencies of converting mechanical energy to electricity then back to mechanical again, there are definitely challenges. GM clearly stated repeatedly with Two-Mode the advantages of not having to do that.
.

Wow, you just criticized your beloved Prius. In order to do the eCVT, MG1 is either sucking or adding power previously generated by the engine. Unless the wheels and engine are turning at exactly the same speed, MG1 is modulating engine speed by adding or subtracting power.

This is why 2-mode is based on a real transmission. It's an improvement over HSD and also the key factor in allowing for serious towing.

However, again you show very little understanding. VOLTEC after 40 miles does generate power, but because there is no mechanical connection it can act completely independent of the wheels, thus great efficiencies are possible in operation. HCCI may also be possible. While a direct mechanical link can be more efficient with 2 mode, that direct connection also requires the engine to operate in a more traditional (inefficient) manner.

Read more about how that eCVT works, 2(4) mode, and consider the full operation of VOLTEC.

[ARCANGEL]

Originally Posted by goblue

Sigh. Still coming back to that. Still trying to judge VOLTEC based on one vehicle and the initial launch.



Wow, you just criticized your beloved Prius. In order to do the eCVT, MG1 is either sucking or adding power previously generated by the engine. Unless the wheels and engine are turning at exactly the same speed, MG1 is modulating engine speed by adding or subtracting power.

This is why 2-mode is based on a real transmission. It's an improvement over HSD and also the key factor in allowing for towing.

However, again you show very little understanding. VOLTEC after 40 miles does generate power, but because there is no mechanical connection it can act completely independent of the wheels, thus great efficiencies are possible in operation. HCCI may also be possible.

Read more about how that eCVT works, 2(4) mode, and consider the full operation of VOLTEC.

I have a question why with most hybrids and it seems voltec will manual transmissions not be available?

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by ARCANGEL

I have a question why with most hybrids and it seems voltec will manual transmissions not be available?

Electric cars don't need transmissions.

[john1701a]

Originally Posted by goblue

Read more about how that eCVT works, 2(4) mode, and consider the full operation of VOLTEC.

Since the goal is deep penetration into the market, not just a "best" trophy, those arguments don't contribute anything. Of course, ignoring the questions of purchase or profit indicate a clear disregard for the goal anyway.

As for my understanding, I didn't say that... GM did! I'd suggest you read their own promotional material, but it's quite well known there is no interest in serving middle-market. It's all about superiority.

Whatever.

When consumers make their next purchase, what will they actually buy?
.