Drove New '08 Toyota Avalon Limited

[kgm777]

Recently stopped by a dealer to drive a new Avalon to see what all the blue-haired buzz was about.

New 2008 Avalon Limited ($37k) vs. my '07 Cadillac DTS ($45k without incentives)

Avalon feels smaller and lighter in steering (no surprise here).

Avalon is very quiet with some wind and engine noise. Less powertrain NVH and lower levels of road noise than the DTS.

DTS (Level 2) has a noticeably softer ride.

No noticeable transmission problems in the Avalon.

Avalon's brake pedal was sticky on the return and made a slight popping sound when released. This was irritating.

When backing up, you cannot see the rear fenders and even the Limited does not have audible sensors like the DTS (both front and rear).

Overall, a very nice car with better gas mileage and resale value than the DTS, but I'm not sure the Toyota dealer will take of me as well as my Cadillac dealer does at service time (includes a free CTS loan car for even minor service and free washes whenever wanted). For Cadillac-level dealer service, you may have to upgrade to a Lexus. The warranty is also longer at Cadillac and Lexus.

Lexus ES 350 requires premium fuel. Avalon and DTS do not.

Will be driving the new Lincoln MKS (base sticker for $37k) to when it debuts this summer.

[cdp326]

Sounds like the Lexus ES350 fits better. Many reviews say that Avalons are essentially near-Lexus.

[roteague]

Persnally, I don't care how nice, luxurious or well built the Avalon or any Lexus is - they are all built by Toyota, without a doubt the most unethical company in the business, and a company I won't do business with under any circumstance.

[kgm777]

Recently rented a 2008 Avalon Touring Sedan (with about 7500 miles) in LA for a few days. The car is very quiet, however the expansion joints on some freeways are brutal and this car did not isolate the harshness from this problem. The other Avalon models should do a little better. The Avalon has better visibility, a tight turning radius, and fewer blind spots than my '07 DTS, although the DTS has a much more substantial (expensive) driving feel and a softer ride.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by roteague

Persnally, I don't care how nice, luxurious or well built the Avalon or any Lexus is - they are all built by Toyota, without a doubt the most unethical company in the business, and a company I won't do business with under any circumstance.

YEP.

Also, Avalon has been and continues to rapidly fade from view - sales numbers, awards, and any kind of strong, favorable review.

This is an example of what happens when you overindulge in SUVs, Trucks, and hybrids simaultaneously ( Corporate form of megalomania - always starts after you throw out what little situational ethics you have left - like here ) - and hang the car product out to dry.

This also illustrates just one amazing aspect of Toyota these days.

They a take a product that they've been successful with to critical aclaim, unimprove it - and then leave it there to rot - with no relief in sight.

[Mr. Burns]

Originally Posted by roteague

Persnally, I don't care how nice, luxurious or well built the Avalon or any Lexus is - they are all built by Toyota, without a doubt the most unethical company in the business, and a company I won't do business with under any circumstance.

LOL!

[FenwickHockey65]

The Avalon's about the only toyota that I actually like. It's everything the Impala should be in my opinion.

[BrickTamland]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

YEP.

Also, Avalon has been and continues to rapidly fade from view - sales numbers, awards, and any kind of strong, favorable review.

This is an example of what happens when you overindulge in SUVs, Trucks, and hybrids simaultaneously ( Corporate form of megalomania - always starts after you throw out what little situational ethics you have left - like here ) - and hang the car product out to dry.

This also illustrates just one amazing aspect of Toyota these days.

They a take a product that they've been successful with to critical aclaim, unimprove it - and then leave it there to rot - with no relief in sight.

You are right about sales - fullsize cars are on the decline these days.

But, the Avalon will not win awards because it is from 2005. They do not award old cars. It was well reviewed at its introduction, such as how it won a Car and Driver comparison in July '05.

The Avalon has not been hung out to dry. It has been redesigned steadily; every five years, with a mid-cycle update three years in. That is pretty typical (or at least what should be typical for cars that do languish for too long, like the Regal or the Intrepid, which in their most recent iterations lasted 7 years).

[Bravada]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

The Avalon's about the only toyota that I actually like. It's everything the Impala should be in my opinion.

Same - but make it "Lucerne" rather than "Impala". Impala should not be a granny cruiser.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by BrickTamland

You are right about sales - fullsize cars are on the decline these days.

Avalon has been declining faster than the group average.

Look at Avalon from 2000 thru 2008.

But, the Avalon will not win awards because it is from 2005. They do not award old cars.

Of all the things to say here, I'm going to just remind you it was an early intro (FEB 2005 ) of a 2006 MYR fully eligible for 2006 MYR awards etc.

Comparision tests do not care about date of introduction unless specifically stated.

It was well reviewed at its introduction, such as how it won a Car and Driver comparison in July '05.

Sure, in the sense that the initial advertorials were nice - which is SOP in the biz these days - falling ad revenues donch'a know - besides which all that was completely superceded by you know, stories like this:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?

AID=/20060501/FREE/60501002/1024/LATESTNEWS < MAY2006>

Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality; fixes sought for 'problematic vehicle'

By MARK RECHTIN | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS



Quality glitches

Since the Avalon's 2005 redesign, Toyota has issued service bulletins to dealers on these topics:

>> Bad U-joint welds
>> Faulty catalytic converters
>> Leak in oil-supply line for variable valve timing
>> Vehicle drifting
....< And lots more later - actually by the date of publication as well.>


LOS ANGELES -- Alan Seider has owned 11 Toyotas since 1982, but his 2006 Avalon likely will be his last.

He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could not solve the car's problems. Toyota headquarters stonewalled his appeals, he says.

"There have been significant throttle control and transmission hesitation issues," says Seider, 45, a computer consultant from Roswell, Ga. "I've isolated 15 different rattles in the body work."

Seider is far from alone. Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com Town Hall are littered with complaints from Toyota loyalists about the redesigned Avalon, which went on sale in February 2005.

- And Toyota recalls have spiked in the last two years. -

Every production line produces its share of lemons. But Toyota already has issued a string of technical service bulletins to dealers to fix Avalons on the road. Changes are being made on the assembly line. Toyota representatives acknowledge there are some teething problems, but decline to call the Avalon a problem car.

The Avalon is the Toyota brand's most-expensive car, starting at $27,355 including destination charges. The redesigned 2005 model was embraced by consumers; Toyota sold 95,318 Avalons last year in the United States, up from 36,460 in 2004.

Avalon sales peaked in 2000 at 104,078 units. It is assembled at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, alongside the Camry and Camry Solara. -

- Now the Avalon redesign is showing that even mighty Toyota can slip up.

Kevin Clingenpeel, a 37-year-old insurance litigator from Fort Mill, S.C., loved his Avalon for the first 2,000 miles.
Then the transmission shifts became erratic, especially in cold weather. The engine developed a persistent knock, which could not be cured by changing grades of gasoline or by using a fuel-injector cleaner.

"I pulled up next to a Ford F-350, and I could hear my valve train clicking louder than his diesel," said Clingenpeel, whose Avalon is his family's third Toyota.

Clingenpeel says his dealer gave the car "a wink and a nod" when he brought it in three times for repairs. Clingenpeel then appealed to Toyota headquarters to send out a district service manager. Toyota refused. Now Clingenpeel is looking to sell the car.

"It's sad because there's a nice car hiding behind all this," Clingenpeel said. "But this is not up to snuff from what I would consider from Toyota."

The Avalon's problems have drawn notice from Consumer Reports magazine, which has for years given the Avalon high marks.

While still giving the 2005 Avalon its highest scores in most categories, the magazine's overall quality rating for the car was average because the Avalon scored below the Buick LaCrosse, Kia Amanti, Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego.

Anita Lam, data program manager for Consumer Reports' auto test center, said problems with the Avalon cropped up in steering, suspension and body integrity.

But Hanson acknowledged that Toyota has been concerned with the initial wave of quality problems for the car. Toyota's priority has been to find and remedy problems, get the fixes to the production line, and issue technical service bulletins so dealers can fix the faults on vehicles already on the road.

"The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," Hanson said.

The Avalon's transmission lurch is especially noticeable in low-speed crawls during rush hour, Hanson said. Previous Avalons had problems shifting smoothly at high speed with high engine revs. Toyota fixed the high-speed lurch by changing software algorithms, but the adjustment caused a low-speed lurch.

The low-speed problem "is all software," Hanson says.

Some customers are voting with their feet. In Seider's case, he replaced his wife's Toyota Sienna minivan with a Honda Pilot. He doubts he will replace the Avalon with another Toyota.

Said Seider: "I am so disappointed in Toyota. I've had previous first-year vehicles, but nothing like this ever happened. Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do. Toyota has reached a size that they've lost sight of the individual customer."

************************************************** ****

The Avalon has not been hung out to dry. It has been redesigned steadily; every five years, with a mid-cycle update three years in.

Setting aside some of your error here, you may want to get familiar with Toyotas current plans for the Avalon - get a calender and use it.

[BrickTamland]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Avalon has been declining faster than the group average.

Look at Avalon from 2000 thru 2008.


Of all the things to say here, I'm going to just remind you it was an early intro (FEB 2005 ) of a 2006 MYR fully eligible for 2006 MYR awards etc.

Comparision tests do not care about date of introduction unless specifically stated.


Sure, in the sense that the initial advertorials were nice - which is SOP in the biz these days - falling ad revenues donch'a know - besides which all that was completely superceded by you know, stories like this:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?

AID=/20060501/FREE/60501002/1024/LATESTNEWS < MAY2006>











************************************************** ****


Setting aside some of your error here, you may want to get familiar with Toyotas current plans for the Avalon - get a calender and use it.

I am not sure what you are getting at. You said the Avalon has faded away from any kind of "strong, favorable review." It got strong reviews in its MY 2005 introduction. It has remained mechanically the same since then. Why would a car magazine test the same car in 2008 that they already tested in 2005?

I think I misinterpreted you. I guess when say "leave it out to rot," you are referring to not taking care of quality issues? If so, then yes, Toyota did not do its job.

By the way, what are Toyota's plans for the Avalon?

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Same - but make it "Lucerne" rather than "Impala". Impala should not be a granny cruiser.

Well the Impala started out as "prestige for every man." I think the Impala should at least become somewhat of a luxury, full size sedan competing with the Avalon. There's a whole thread about this somewhere...

By the way, one of my best friends drives an Avalon Limited...it's actually quite nice inside, only it gets a piddling 21 MPG according to the onboard computer...she does want to get a Malibu though.

[Exploder]

Well the Impala started out as "prestige for every man." I think the Impala should at least become somewhat of a luxury, full size sedan competing with the Avalon. There's a whole thread about this somewhere...

Agreed. I quite like the Avalon. Ideally the Impala should ramp up to compete with it, whether FWD or RWD.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by roteague

they are all built by Toyota, without a doubt the most unethical company in the business,

Have any evidence for that?

Are they shooting union organizers? Bribing government officials? Lobbying for anti-GM laws?

All I've seen them do is manipulate public opinion by expert advertising and ride a false "green image" - and that kind of nonsense is pretty typical for automakers.

When GM cars used to get poor marks in crash test ratings, GM publicists would state, "We use our own internal safety metrics which we believe to be more useful than government tests." And statistically speaking, people who drove those models that scored poorly in government crash tests were more likely to die in crashes. Now GM models are starting to get top notch crash safety ratings in public crash tests, and death rates are declining. So that sounds to me like GM was being pretty ($*&U ()*$ unethical and totally lying about "internal safety metrics". What do you say to that?

[kgm777]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Well the Impala started out as "prestige for every man." I think the Impala should at least become somewhat of a luxury, full size sedan competing with the Avalon. There's a whole thread about this somewhere...

By the way, one of my best friends drives an Avalon Limited...it's actually quite nice inside, only it gets a piddling 21 MPG according to the onboard computer...she does want to get a Malibu though.

I got 26.5 mpg combined city and highway.