Post Aura, Vue, Astra The Case for Saturn?

[Will123w]

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

Coaster,
The problem is GM EXPECTED ""MUCH"" higher returns on both Cadillac/Saturn revitalizations reguardless of what they actually ended up being. My thought is they thought at year 2-3 for Saturn and year 6-7 for Cadillac they'd be doing 1.5X the volume each brand currently is doing and optimistically were hopeing for DOUBLE the volume (Maybe not of CTS / Escalade /Vue, but EVERY other Cadillac/Saturn product)...yet this might take another 4 years to get that kind of volume if continuous improvement seems to / will continue. A refined SRX/STS/XLR/and new BLS and BRX should have occurred but won't...it seems like Saturn will get all refining products yet they NEED much higher MPG especially from Vue and higher mpg from Aura/Astra ---JMO---

Yes sales are up, but they should be up a good 200,000 units across the entire Saturn brand in GM's mind.

CobaltSScrazy

This is kind of what I was getting at. Sure sales are up, but if these were all Chevy products from the get go might sales be up even more?

Also I'm not trying to be an armchair CEO it's just my opinion take it and leave it as that.

[CobaltSScrazy]

Originally Posted by Will123w

This is kind of what I was getting at. Sure sales are up, but if these were all Chevy products from the get go might sales be up even more?

Also I'm not trying to be an armchair CEO it's just my opinion take it and leave it as that.

Agreed, or Pontiac! Imagine if Aura/Astra/Sky (well they have solstice) went to pontiac and improved G6/G5/better solstice. Imagine if Outlook were a Chevrolet RIGHT NOW!

If Aura were a Pontiac, it'd probably have 50k more sales currently, Astra is to new to decide. ---JMO---

If Saturn would have stayed a Scion Fighter with great economical products you can bet your behind sales would be increased more right now for Saturn/Pontiac.

CobaltSScrazy

[unkillsam]

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

Agreed, or Pontiac! Imagine if Aura/Astra/Sky (well they have solstice) went to pontiac and improved G6/G5/better solstice. Imagine if Outlook were a Chevrolet RIGHT NOW!

If Aura were a Pontiac, it'd probably have 50k more sales currently, Astra is to new to decide. ---JMO---

If Saturn would have stayed a Scion Fighter with great economical products you can bet your behind sales would be increased more right now for Saturn/Pontiac.

CobaltSScrazy

Where would these "Scion" type products come from?

All Toyota had to do was ship over some old cars from Japan for pracically no cash.

We (Americans in general) were buying their OLD appliances.

[coaster.n3rd]

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

Coaster,
The problem is GM EXPECTED ""MUCH"" higher returns on both Cadillac/Saturn revitalizations reguardless of what they actually ended up being. My thought is they thought at year 2-3 for Saturn and year 6-7 for Cadillac they'd be doing 1.5X the volume each brand currently is doing and optimistically were hopeing for DOUBLE the volume (Maybe not of CTS / Escalade /Vue, but EVERY other Cadillac/Saturn product)...yet this might take another 4 years to get that kind of volume if continuous improvement seems to / will continue. A refined SRX/STS/XLR/and new BLS and BRX should have occurred but won't...it seems like Saturn will get all refining products yet they NEED much higher MPG especially from Vue and higher mpg from Aura/Astra ---JMO---

Yes sales are up, but they should be up a good 200,000 units across the entire Saturn brand in GM's mind.

CobaltSScrazy

Lots of companies expect higher numbers, but Saturn has reworked their strategy in the last 3 years. I've heard it from the horses mouth that Saturn is not a high volume brand. This was after they said they wanted to do 2/3 Chevy's volume. GM does not have it their mind to sell another 200,000 a year at Saturn.

Originally Posted by Will123w

This is kind of what I was getting at. Sure sales are up, but if these were all Chevy products from the get go might sales be up even more?

Also I'm not trying to be an armchair CEO it's just my opinion take it and leave it as that.

If they were all Chevy products you have lost almost an entire brands worth of customers. Some people won't step foot in a Chevy dealer because of service and some because of the bow-tie. I dread taking my Chevy in for service at any of my local dealers (and I have 10 of them within a good distance.) But man when I had that S series and I took it to the Saturn dealer and they kissed my ass.. When I went shopping for a car I never mentioned I was a dealer myself and all the Chevy dealers tried every trick in the book to get me to buy. I want a Camaro, but I think I'm going to a broker.

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

Agreed, or Pontiac! Imagine if Aura/Astra/Sky (well they have solstice) went to pontiac and improved G6/G5/better solstice. Imagine if Outlook were a Chevrolet RIGHT NOW!

If Aura were a Pontiac, it'd probably have 50k more sales currently, Astra is to new to decide. ---JMO---

If Saturn would have stayed a Scion Fighter with great economical products you can bet your behind sales would be increased more right now for Saturn/Pontiac.

CobaltSScrazy

Its the same thing over and over. Pontiac is supposed to be excitement brand and you want a 1.8 liter 139hp German car there? Or a refined mid-size sport sedan? Chevy has their day with the Lambda.

Saturn was never a Scion fighter. What Scion was going to be fought off with the L-300 or the S-series? If anyone is fighting Scion and failing, its Pontiac. More ways to add accessories to a G5 or G6 then any other car GM sells.

[SirRaven]

Well said Coaster. We can not expect a single brand to be good at everything, that is why GM has the upper hand on Toyota, or any other Manufacturer. GM is still working hard to sort out all of the brands and once everything is sorted out it will make much more since where everything has gone and where they are at. Also we can not expect a brand with a small dealership base to put out anything close to what large dealer base can do. Im sure if Saturn had as many dealerships as Chevy they could put out those large numbers, but also then GM would have to supply that many cars to the dealers and thats just not what they have planned to do. As coaster said, Saturn is not a high valume brand. When sales increase faster than the average it has to be considered doing something positive.

[cdp326]

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

If Saturn would have stayed a Scion Fighter with great economical products you can bet your behind sales would be increased more right now for Saturn/Pontiac.

Except that (as coaster said) they never were a Scion fighter.

Give it time, Saturn is still in the process of changing.

[TriShield]

The brand doesn't have the image or customer base it takes to move semi-expensive or upscale cars. I said this when this plan leaked and it looks like I was correct.

There really isn't a case for any GM brand outside of Chevrolet, Cadillac and HUMMER. None of the others don't do anything the core three already does or could do better.

The antiquated brand empire is one huge liability holding GM down and as time goes on it's becoming ever clearer they cannot afford them all.

[coaster.n3rd]

Originally Posted by TriShield

The brand doesn't have the image or customer base it takes to move semi-expensive or upscale cars. I said this when this plan leaked and it looks like I was correct.

There really isn't a case for any GM brand outside of Chevrolet, Cadillac and HUMMER. None of the others don't do anything the core three already does or could do better.

The antiquated brand empire is one huge liability holding GM down and as time goes on it's becoming ever clearer they cannot afford them all.

And they can afford to let them go? Apparently +sales mean nothing. Are you going to run from the facts again?

[RS0987654]

Two points.

First, I own a Saturn Sky RL and a Saturn Vue XR. Both are great cars. My problem is that there are few dealers, and fewer still with good service departments. Saturn needs more good dealers to make a dent in market share.

Second, Saturn does not deal their cars below MSRP. This would be fine for cars like the Astra, Sky and Vue, but for the Aura and Outlook, Saturn needs different rules. Either Saturn needs to allow their dealers to deal like a Chevy dealer to sell a rebadged Malibu or Traverse, or Saturn needs to have a stable of cars that other GM brands do not have. Currently, Saturn dealers are being undercut by the competing GM brand down the block, and the result is that they are going out of business.

I live in Orange County, CA and in the last two years we have lost 2 Saturn dealers. The closest dealer is 25 minutes away.

[vandy0419]

I am happy with the Saturn line up. The dealership near me has 6 Astra XR hatches and the car is sharp! I like how Saturn also stays with the euro look. Astra is the same as the one across seas and same goes for the VUE and SKY. Chevy is too much of a pure american brand. People would think it would be a slap in the face for all the Chevy models to be completely replaced with the European model!

The Cobalt needs redone, but the ION was out first so the Astra replaced the ION. Also, get rid of the SKY? Are you freaking kidding me?! I'd buy a SKY RL in a heartbeat! They'd have to take 6 grand off the Solstice GXP for me to buy one...if not more! The styling of the Saturns look awesome and I'm all about anything GM, but I'd be pissed off to see all these euro models become Chevy.

My dealer's service is amazing. Open till Midnight, Monday through Thursday. I just bought a 2008 VUE RL...love the car, loved the service I got from the sales department.

If you get on Edmunds, you see how little mark up the dealers even get so there of course is little room to play on the numbers. They still accomidated me very well with my trade in along with taking a little off of my VUE, when there wasn't much to take off.

They can be a little tight on what discounts you can get, while many other GM dealers just throw everything out there...but the markups are higher.

Compare the Solstice GXP to the SKY RL...hundreds difference between what the dealer pays and MSRP.

[WhenenRome]

Originally Posted by RS0987654

Two points.

First, I own a Saturn Sky RL and a Saturn Vue XR. Both are great cars. My problem is that there are few dealers, and fewer still with good service departments. Saturn needs more good dealers to make a dent in market share.

Second, Saturn does not deal their cars below MSRP. This would be fine for cars like the Astra, Sky and Vue, but for the Aura and Outlook, Saturn needs different rules. Either Saturn needs to allow their dealers to deal like a Chevy dealer to sell a rebadged Malibu or Traverse, or Saturn needs to have a stable of cars that other GM brands do not have. Currently, Saturn dealers are being undercut by the competing GM brand down the block, and the result is that they are going out of business.

I live in Orange County, CA and in the last two years we have lost 2 Saturn dealers. The closest dealer is 25 minutes away.

Drifting a little off-topic here, I feel your pain. Los Angeles County also lost three Saturn dealers in the last three years, leaving an unthinkable 50-mile wide gap between dealers in the Greater Los Angeles area (I know people in other, less populated parts of the country might see that as no big deal. But with LA / OC traffic and population, that can translate to ''hours'' away.) Another dealer near Palm Springs also closed, leaving just two dealers in the wide spanned Inland Empire area. All these being part of Southern California, the automotive industry're most critical market.

So I'm pretty much begging for the ''Saturn is a stand-alone dealer only'' rule to be officially lifted (which is now ''unofficially'' rumored to be the case), since we are losing these dealers - and not gaining any more - precisely because it often isn't profitable to operate only one GM franchise under one roof. As a matter of fact, I'm begging for GM to lobby some pre-existing GM dealerships in LA's San Gabriel Valley area, Eastern Orange County, etc, to take-on a Saturn franchise.

Beyond that, they need to completely absorb Saturn's service network into GM's STAT - so that another GM make dealer may warranty-service a Saturn if there is no Saturn dealer nearby.

That antiquated ''stand-alone'' rule is the only thing I see wrong with Saturn's current foundation. In many regions, this theory has WAY passed its time. Saturn's impressive mission as an ''up-market import fighter with Euro character'' won't matter if prospective buyers in major maket regions don't SEE a Saturn retailer anywhere near them.

[WhenenRome]

Originally Posted by TriShield

There really isn't a case for any GM brand outside of Chevrolet, Cadillac and HUMMER. None of the others don't do anything the core three already does or could do better.

There's a problem with your theory: Personally, I would probably not ever buy any of those three makes. I seriously doubt I'm alone... and that's an understatement. Which leads me to.....

Originally Posted by Will123w

....When I look at the current line-up, I think wow these should have just been chevy's a year ago instead of now and in the future.

Aura- Supposed to be the upscale lineup, but is outclasses by the Malibu, so whats the point of it? We could of had a Malibu out instead of the Aura when it debuted..

I tend to think people must be close-minded to Saturn, or really not particularly interested in either an Aura or a Malibu, to conclude that they're just clones of each other. I certainly don't agree that the Aura is ''outclassed'' by the Malibu. I'm not really sure how you came up with that one.

I did compare both before I bought. I found that the Aura had a more European character, and that the Malibu had more of a flamboyant, all-American flavor - a flavor that wasn't for me. I ultimately chose the Aura (also over other cars I drove, including the aformentioned VW Passat). If it weren't there, there would be no current GM car that I would purchase. This coming from someone who never owned a Saturn - no preconceived notions here!

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Yep, and once you have a True Dual Market Astra and a Dual Market Aura (similar to the Dual Market nature of the Vue today) there will be no difference between Saturn and Opel...

And that comes across to buyers as absolutely an asset. I know it did for me.