Toyota to sell diesel hybrid by 2010 thanks to Isuzu

[uboys]

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/21/t...anks-to-isuzu/

JapanToday is reporting that a Toyota subcompact with this diesel hybrid drivetrain will be available as soon as 2010. Assuming we're not all driving EVs by then, such a car should easily grab the mpg crown in the U.S.

[uboys]

Missed opportunity for GM?
Time will tell.

[DuSpinnst]

Engineering by Press Release, expect Honda and possibly GM to beat them to it.

[Realist]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Engineering by Press Release, expect Honda and possibly GM to beat them to it.

That seems overly optimistic. If Toyota actually does pull this off, it will be a big deal.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by Realist

That seems overly optimistic. If Toyota actually does pull this off, it will be a big deal.

Currently only Honda, GM and DCX have next generation passenger car diesel engines. The only type of diesel Isuzu has going for them is for trucks, and GM owns (or shares) most of the patents on those.

This is posturing by Toyota they are in fact WAY behind in the diesel game. If they pull this off before Honda (who has both next gen diesels and hybrids) or GM and DCX (who have the diesels and are jointly working on two-mode hybrids) then it will be because of GROSS incompetence at all three companies.

An import lover may argue GM won't do it, but I will wager they won't challenge Honda or DCX's ability to do so.

[Realist]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Currently only Honda, GM and DCX have next generation passenger car diesel engines. The only type of diesel Isuzu has going for them is for trucks, and GM owns (or shares) most of the patents on those.

This is posturing by Toyota they are in fact WAY behind in the diesel game. If they pull this off before Honda (who has both next gen diesels and hybrids) or GM and DCX (who have the diesels and are jointly working on two-mode hybrids) then it will be because of GROSS incompetence at all three companies.

An import lover may argue GM won't do it, but I will wager they won't challenge Honda or DCX's ability to do so.

True, GM and Honda are both working on next-gen small diesels. Wouldn't go so far as to say they have them already, because then they'd be on sale. DCX has the Bluetec diesels, but those use the urea solution, and are not as elegant as the simple clean diesels from Honda or GM. Refilling the urea tank frequently won't be a selling point for consumers.

But don't be foolish and think Toyota is just lying around watching TV while Honda and GM are doing this. That's exactly why they partnered with Isuzu. To be fair, Toyota has big diesels through Hino, and they also have small diesels on sale in Europe and a few other markets, but they cannot meet upcoming EPA diesel regulations.

And yes, GM has the dual-mode hybrids, but Honda has next-gen hybrids? Really? That's a surprise to me. Would you mind showing me any links or news about it? Last I checked, Honda was behind in the hybrid game, behind even GM I would say. And Toyota's next gen hybrid system is supposed to appear in 2008/2009, just before this rumoured diesel hybrid.

[uboys]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Engineering by Press Release, expect Honda and possibly GM to beat them to it.

Toyota is not known for that.
I want to see GM walk before I could say something like that.
They need a coup badly.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by Realist

True, GM and Honda are both working on next-gen small diesels. Wouldn't go so far as to say they have them already, because then they'd be on sale. DCX has the Bluetec diesels, but those use the urea solution, and are not as elegant as the simple clean diesels from Honda or GM. Refilling the urea tank frequently won't be a selling point for consumers.

But don't be foolish and think Toyota is just lying around watching TV while Honda and GM are doing this. That's exactly why they partnered with Isuzu. To be fair, Toyota has big diesels through Hino, and they also have small diesels on sale in Europe and a few other markets, but they cannot meet upcoming EPA diesel regulations.

And yes, GM has the dual-mode hybrids, but Honda has next-gen hybrids? Really? That's a surprise to me. Would you mind showing me any links or news about it? Last I checked, Honda was behind in the hybrid game, behind even GM I would say. And Toyota's next gen hybrid system is supposed to appear in 2008/2009, just before this rumoured diesel hybrid.

No one has "next-generation" hybrids. Also you make the assumption that the Hybrid Synergy drive is functionally superior (today) than Honda's current solution. GM is also using the Urea solution, and in fact most companies will be. Honda is one of the few companies that isn't using it.

Also, big truck diesels (or even pick-up ones) such as Isuzu and Hino don't give Toyota anything "extra" to the table. Toyota may be slightly ahead in the hybrid game but they are way behind in the diesel game. Honda, GM, and DCX will have the next gen diesels by 2008, when Toyota gets the next gen Hybrid (according to you), further keeping each company in some way behind the others.

For Toyota to beat all three of those companies to market, they have to do EVERYTHING right, while at the same time those companies do EVERYTHING wrong. The ONLY person who would say this is anything but Engineering by press release is a fool.

Ironic that your name is "Realist" considering how unrealistic you are being here.

[roteague]

Originally Posted by uboys

Toyota is not known for that.
I want to see GM walk before I could say something like that.
They need a coup badly.

Yes, they are more known for engineering by copy and theft.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by Mags

Engineering by press release or not, YOU might have info about what DCX is doing because you work for them. You have no idea what Toyota is doing, or what Honda is doing, or what GM is doing really. All you have is conjecture and theories.

Will Toyota come out with a hybrid diesel before others? Who knows. But speaking about the plans of other companies as though you know more than any other person is presumptive.

MF

I don't work for DCX, I work with DCX the most. I work for a Supplier, which means we sell things to EVERYONE. Besides unless you live in a bubble people know what is going on at each others companies, industry people talk to each other. ESPECIALLY on the supplier side.

[Strapping.Young.Lad]

A HYBRID-DIESEL SUBCOMPACT!!!!
OMG, That will be AMAZING on fuel.

GM, Realease a Diesel 2008 Malibu, and I could get my Dad to buy it!

[Platt_Mallar]

I really think GM needs to offer diesel motors in cars. They have 'em in EU. My friend has a diesel Passat and he loves the mileage. Can we set up a factory in NA to make the engines? What about the place that makes the 3800's? Won't that motor be shutdown soon?

And GM's current hybrid is aligned with the tranny, not the motor right? Why can't we get a diesel with a bellhousing that fits the hybrid-style tranny? Sure as heck would make the Greenlines a lot more "green"

[Realist]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

No one has "next-generation" hybrids. Also you make the assumption that the Hybrid Synergy drive is functionally superior (today) than Honda's current solution. GM is also using the Urea solution, and in fact most companies will be. Honda is one of the few companies that isn't using it.

Also, big truck diesels (or even pick-up ones) such as Isuzu and Hino don't give Toyota anything "extra" to the table. Toyota may be slightly ahead in the hybrid game but they are way behind in the diesel game. Honda, GM, and DCX will have the next gen diesels by 2008, when Toyota gets the next gen Hybrid (according to you), further keeping each company in some way behind the others.

For Toyota to beat all three of those companies to market, they have to do EVERYTHING right, while at the same time those companies do EVERYTHING wrong. The ONLY person who would say this is anything but Engineering by press release is a fool.

Ironic that your name is "Realist" considering how unrealistic you are being here.

Seemed to me like you knew for sure who did or didn't have "next-gen" hybrids. I haven't seen anything showing that Honda's simple assist-style hybrid system is functionally superior to Toyota's full hybrid Synergy Drive.

GM is using the urea solution too? I honestly though they were making a design similar to Honda's, it's a shame.

Again, I don't understand how Toyota is behind in the diesel game, especially compared to Honda. Maybe to GM and DCX. Toyota has had plenty of diesels for sale worldwide for many years, and Honda only a few years ago starting selling it's *first* diesel engine ever, which in fact was an Isuzu design. The current 2.2L Honda diesel sold in some of it's Euro models is the first diesel that Honda actually designed themselves. The one before that was the Isuzu design. So essentially, Honda has only had two diesel engines, one not even of their own design, compared to the many diesels that Toyota has made over the years, just for passenger cars.

You're assuming Toyota *right now* is way behind because Honda publicly announced some of it's current and future R & D developments. Toyota almost never does this, because they're so darn secretive. Insiders all know that Toyota is working on their next-gen hybrid system, even though Toyota has not publicly said it. And it was also known among insiders that Toyota was working on new diesels, but only recently was it publicly said with the Isuzu tie-up.

Reading your posts, looks like you are linked to insiders of DCX. I keep contact with various industry insiders, although I myself am not one by any means.

Unrealistic? Hmmm, so was Honda's announcement not engineering by press release? How about GM's announcement last year about it's two-mode hybrids? Honda's diesels won't be here for years, and the two-mode hybrids aren't on sale yet either.

[Realist]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

I don't work for DCX, I work with DCX the most. I work for a Supplier, which means we sell things to EVERYONE. Besides unless you live in a bubble people know what is going on at each others companies, industry people talk to each other. ESPECIALLY on the supplier side.

I am just making assumptions here, so feel free to correct me.

I assume you work for a US-based supplier, not a Japanese-based one. If so, then you likely wouldn't have much insider info on what's happening over in Toyota's or Honda's camp in terms of R & D. By the way, Toyota's R & D spending for fiscal year 2006 is over 8 Billion US, which I believe is higher than any other automaker. Over a 10% increase compared to 2005. That's a huge chunk of money to spend on R & D, and that money has got to go somewhere, into some big developments.

[genjy]

Originally Posted by roteague

Yes, they are more known for engineering by copy and theft.

Copy and theft of what?