Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

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Thread: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

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    Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says
    Automotive News
    January 23, 2013

    Toyota Motor Corp. is nearing a final agreement to license its fuel-cell vehicle technology to BMW, the Nikkei business daily reported.

    Under the agreement, to be made official as early as Thursday, Toyota will provide the world's largest premium carmaker with drivetrain and hydrogen storage technology, the report said.

    BMW will use the technology to build a prototype vehicle by 2015, with plans for a market release around 2020, the Nikkei said.

    The two automakers have been expanding their r&d ties over the last year. In December 2011, they said they will work together on green car technologies, including the joint development of lithium-ion batteries. BMW would also supply diesel engines to Toyota in Europe as part of the tie-up, the companies said at the time.

    Full article at link.

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Anyone know whats going on with GM's fuel-cell program? Pre-bankruptcy it seemed like every other artice was about their hydrogen program, now we don't hear a peep.

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    Anyone know whats going on with GM's fuel-cell program? Pre-bankruptcy it seemed like every other artice was about their hydrogen program, now we don't hear a peep.
    The fuel-cell research lab in Honeyoye Falls, NY was closed and moved to one of GM's other labs near Detroit in a consolidation move recently. Since then I haven't heard anything.
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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by sledgehammer777 View Post
    The fuel-cell research lab in Honeyoye Falls, NY was closed and moved to one of GM's other labs near Detroit in a consolidation move recently. Since then I haven't heard anything.
    Previously GM used to maintain a web page for the project driveway program. The new GM seems discarded everything on hydrogen including all media pages in GM .

    Hydrogen fuel cell car is essentially an electric car and only diffidence is the Range extender or electric generator part is replaced with a fuel cell which can create electricity some where 70% + efficient compared to 40% efficiency of ICE.

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by uvikrama View Post
    Previously GM used to maintain a web page for the project driveway program. The new GM seems discarded everything on hydrogen including all media pages in GM .

    Hydrogen fuel cell car is essentially an electric car and only diffidence is the Range extender or electric generator part is replaced with a fuel cell which can create electricity some where 70% + efficient compared to 40% efficiency of ICE.
    If GM took down the website, etc for the purpose of "not showing their hand" to the competitors then I'm all for it! But that's a big "if".

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    GM has already miniturized this technology. I hope Dan is watching closely and makes sure GM is not left behind sitting on its investments.


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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    Anyone know whats going on with GM's fuel-cell program? Pre-bankruptcy it seemed like every other article was about their hydrogen program, now we don't hear a peep.
    Dan dismissed the whole project as too expensive and canned it for 2020 instead of 2015 despite the achievements made in commercializing the technology. As far as we know GM had actually achieved commercial viability for 2015 by miniaturization the entire hydrogen cell into a single unit small enough to fit in a conventional engine bay.


    The big stack was the one used in the equinox prototypes used by the public, the smaller one was the one slated for production in 2015 for a Cadillac or Buick you could buy. (Also shown above)
    Last edited by mchicha; 01-23-2013 at 12:47 PM.

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    LOL at bringing a fuel cell car to market by 2020. We can't even build a relatively cheap EV charging infrastructure in America. I'm a huge advocate of hydrogen technologies, see username, but BMW and Toyota need to be realistic. We are decades away from economical implementation of these technologies.

    First and foremost, it takes massive amounts of energy to produce hydrogen and electrolysis is an incredibility inefficient method of production. There are only two ways to produce energy for a future hydrogen economy; advanced, high temp nuclear fission and solar thermal radiation. Fusion ultimately. Burning fossil fuels is out of the question because the goal is zero carbon emissions. Nuclear energy is the backbone of the hydrogen economy. We are about a decade away from deploying the first next gen nuclear power plants. These fission reactors create ~1000 C temperatures, and that heat is used to produce hydrogen. This thermodynamic process is significantly more efficient than electrolysis. We can produces limitless amounts of hydrogen this way.

    So, until we get serious about nuclear energy, fuel cell cars will never see the roads.

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by hydrogen View Post
    LOL at bringing a fuel cell car to market by 2020. We can't even build a relatively cheap EV charging infrastructure in America. I'm a huge advocate of hydrogen technologies, see username, but BMW and Toyota need to be realistic. We are decades away from economical implementation of these technologies.

    First and foremost, it takes massive amounts of energy to produce hydrogen and electrolysis is an incredibility inefficient method of production. There are only two ways to produce energy for a future hydrogen economy; advanced, high temp nuclear fission and solar thermal radiation. Fusion ultimately. Burning fossil fuels is out of the question because the goal is zero carbon emissions. Nuclear energy is the backbone of the hydrogen economy. We are about a decade away from deploying the first next gen nuclear power plants. These fission reactors create ~1000 C temperatures, and that heat is used to produce hydrogen. This thermodynamic process is significantly more efficient than electrolysis. We can produces limitless amounts of hydrogen this way.

    So, until we get serious about nuclear energy, fuel cell cars will never see the roads.
    This gives me hope that I can keep my V8 a while longer

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Some will be present a lot sooner than that.

    CYR 2013..... 2015 in Global terms.

    Not everyone is tryin' to piss up a rope with batteries and not everyone has a biased approach to what will get a shot for future use - thankfully.

    And the Japanese have been for quite awhile now ( behind the American media presentation ) - much more open to non battery alternatives as part of the mix especially since the massive and completely misreported Fukushima meltdowns and worse occurred - so we're the last ones truly stuck fast.

    Likely .......2015.....2017 with some numbers behind them.


    ************


    We need to see what BMW has to say about the real deal - just as we did before.

    BMW is no stranger to hydrogen including at least indirectly in a still meaningful way fuel cells -

    PSA Hybrid Air...... and GM in and along with it is perhaps...... spooky for some others.

    Hydrogen fuel cells and perhaps some other types of 'cells are still the end game.

    Always have been - and I do mean always.

    Same for the Hydraulic Hybrids.

    The battery crap is mostly dead end and or a worse than useless set of never ending detours - although not completely.

    Helps....... although inefficiently, pave the way for the 'cells.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-25-2013 at 11:47 AM.
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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by hydrogen View Post
    LOL at bringing a fuel cell car to market by 2020. We can't even build a relatively cheap EV charging infrastructure in America. I'm a huge advocate of hydrogen technologies, see username, but BMW and Toyota need to be realistic. We are decades away from economical implementation of these technologies.

    First and foremost, it takes massive amounts of energy to produce hydrogen and electrolysis is an incredibility inefficient method of production. There are only two ways to produce energy for a future hydrogen economy; advanced, high temp nuclear fission and solar thermal radiation. Fusion ultimately. Burning fossil fuels is out of the question because the goal is zero carbon emissions. Nuclear energy is the backbone of the hydrogen economy. We are about a decade away from deploying the first next gen nuclear power plants. These fission reactors create ~1000 C temperatures, and that heat is used to produce hydrogen. This thermodynamic process is significantly more efficient than electrolysis. We can produces limitless amounts of hydrogen this way.

    So, until we get serious about nuclear energy, fuel cell cars will never see the roads.
    Good to have someone familiar with hydrogen infrastructure challenges chime in. Thanks!

    Could you elaborate on the part in bold. Why does it *have* to be zero carbon emissions? Wouldn't a reduction compared to current emissions (or rather, the projected emissions of current methodologies in 20xx) be a more reasonable threshold?
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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by emh View Post
    Good to have someone familiar with hydrogen infrastructure challenges chime in. Thanks!

    Could you elaborate on the part in bold. Why does it *have* to be zero carbon emissions? Wouldn't a reduction compared to current emissions (or rather, the projected emissions of current methodologies in 20xx) be a more reasonable threshold?
    This is a very lengthy and complex topic so I'll summarize. The ultimate goal is to produce energy exactly like the Sun. The Sun is a fusion reactor that's fueled by hydrogen. Hydrogen is the universe's most basic fuel and it makes up 75% of the universe's total mass. Once we figure out nuclear fusion using an isotope of hydrogen as the fuel source, all other forms of energy production will be obsolete. We will have the power of the Sun in our hands. It's crazy stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by mchicha View Post
    This gives me hope that I can keep my V8 a while longer
    Don't worry about that. I'm going to make sure V8 engines live on no matter what, but it's secret how I do that.

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by hydrogen View Post
    LOL at bringing a fuel cell car to market by 2020. We can't even build a relatively cheap EV charging infrastructure in America. I'm a huge advocate of hydrogen technologies, see username, but BMW and Toyota need to be realistic. We are decades away from economical implementation of these technologies.

    First and foremost, it takes massive amounts of energy to produce hydrogen and electrolysis is an incredibility inefficient method of production. There are only two ways to produce energy for a future hydrogen economy; advanced, high temp nuclear fission and solar thermal radiation. Fusion ultimately. Burning fossil fuels is out of the question because the goal is zero carbon emissions. Nuclear energy is the backbone of the hydrogen economy. We are about a decade away from deploying the first next gen nuclear power plants. These fission reactors create ~1000 C temperatures, and that heat is used to produce hydrogen. This thermodynamic process is significantly more efficient than electrolysis. We can produces limitless amounts of hydrogen this way.

    So, until we get serious about nuclear energy, fuel cell cars will never see the roads.
    Not disagreeing with any of your main points, but you did skip over the fact that quite a bit of hydrogen is produced today for industrial purposes, typically via steam methane reforming of natural gas. Hydrogen is used extensively in the refining of petroleum and production of fertilizer. Given today's technology, this is probably the most cost-effective way of producing it. I agree the electrolysis is an inefficient method, unless you have "gobs" of excess electricity to support it (which, obviously, is seldom the case).

    Another key point is, regardless of how efficient the production method, is distribution: building an infrastructure to support an equivalent distribution (as compared to gasoline) of H2 across the globe would be massively expensive. Even in the best of scenarios, H2 production would end up being distributed (i.e., at a nuke plant, etc.) in a relatively small radius of that plant. Still, that may work quite well in larger urban markets.

    The bigger point is the "chicken or egg" question: do you wait to produce a fuel cell car UNTIL such time as we have an economically practical way of producing AND distributing hydrogen, OR do automakers put their collective "toe" in the water, using small semi-captured fleets of vehicles and supporting those fleets using conventional methods (i.e., SMR of natural gas) to provide the hydrogen to support those fleets?

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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    Quote Originally Posted by hydrogen View Post
    LOL at bringing a fuel cell car to market by 2020. We can't even build a relatively cheap EV charging infrastructure in America. I'm a huge advocate of hydrogen technologies, see username, but BMW and Toyota need to be realistic. We are decades away from economical implementation of these technologies.

    First and foremost, it takes massive amounts of energy to produce hydrogen and electrolysis is an incredibility inefficient method of production. There are only two ways to produce energy for a future hydrogen economy; advanced, high temp nuclear fission and solar thermal radiation. Fusion ultimately. Burning fossil fuels is out of the question because the goal is zero carbon emissions. Nuclear energy is the backbone of the hydrogen economy. We are about a decade away from deploying the first next gen nuclear power plants. These fission reactors create ~1000 C temperatures, and that heat is used to produce hydrogen. This thermodynamic process is significantly more efficient than electrolysis. We can produces limitless amounts of hydrogen this way.

    So, until we get serious about nuclear energy, fuel cell cars will never see the roads.
    Thanks for the primer!

    BTW- Nice OptiSpark in your avatar!
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    Re: Toyota nears final deal to license fuel-cell technology to BMW, report says

    You will see larger scale hydrogen infrastructure - it's already here.

    So the issue is extending it to vehicle fueling - which will run about 10 - 20 % of the cost - or less depending on location .... of building a plug in infrastructure.

    The plug in infrastructure is the very definition of " not feasible " - there literally is not enough wealth on the planet to make it happen - for the planet.

    Of course there are all kinds of other issues that preclude a large scale phev / bev adoption - as if more were needed - and there will be more as some other things develop including the conventional gasser.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-23-2013 at 07:20 PM.
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