Toyota Corolla, Matrix, and Camry losin' their A.p.p.e.a.l.

[cbennie2]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

This is perception but I'll grant that for the two vehicles in question, both of which are very price-sensitive, they have [lessened, cheapened, decontented, take your pick] the interiors. Why? Price-sensitive! The Koreans are very strong competitors and at the time they were very price agressive.

In the case of the Camry the Gen6 was the Gen of the V6/6Spd and the hybrid model. The I4 was basically unchanged from 2002. The high volume LE 2.4L was competing against the Accord and Altima and Mazda6, its natural competitors. However the new Fusion had just come out and immediately Ford graced it with $2000 rebates. The last gen Malibu was finisihing its life with $3000-$4000 rebates. The Sonata was always content-heavy and low-priced. Into this price-sensitive environment the LE 2.4L came with 7 airbags, tilt and telescoping SW, AUX.

The outgoing Gen 5 LE was sold at about $21500 MSRP less a $500 rebate, less local discounts. It had 2 airbags, ABS brakes, a CD player and not much else.

Again if content is to be added and the price kept the same to stay in line with the rest something has to give. In this case again it was the interiors. They're OK but nothing to get excited about. However all the excitement is about the new V6 which at the time was the class of the industry ( the rest have caught up now ) and of course the hybrid version which is the future. The LE 2.4L took a backseat to the new stars on the block. Each of these now is about 15-20% of total sales and total sales have increased since 2006.

The hybrid version is simply the class of the entire industry in this segment. There is nothing else like it ( except its Nissan clone ). It has V6 power and fuel economy that's better than a Corolla or Civic or Sentra. It's the future of all midsized vehicles in some 5-10 yrs, ( Malibu/Aura 2-Modes, Fusion/Milan hybrids, Altima hybrid, Sonata hybrid ). The proof is that it's sold out at MSRP. Hello $4 gas. Pretty good foresight and timing there.

Here's a heads up. The next change is in the I4 engine and powertrain.

I think the point is that with all the money Toyota makes on car sales, there should be no reason to have to worry about the price. But instead, they want to maintain their profits (like GM of the 60-70's) and decided the easiest way to maintain profits was to downgrade the interiors. How many people on this site complain about the crappy GM interiors, but then are willing to give Toyota a pass because they have "record profits."

On the other hand, GM who is cash strapped compared to Toyota, has realized that cheapening the interiors cannot work and has devoted considerable resources to improve in this area. With every new car launch, GM's vehicles are getting better. Toyota has no room to be complaisant with their bread and bread vehicles...

[ponchoman49]

The Camry, Corolla and Matrix look like rental cars in base and mid level form with there cheap plastic hub caps, sea of gray or black plastic interiors, plain genric slab sided appearance, no door moldings or character lines and the now done to death Camry/Mazda knock off grille that is on everything save the trucks and SUV's. Edmunds did a consumer test with the Camry vs Malibu and Accord and the Corolla vs Mazda 6 and Civic. They likened the Camry and Corolla to dull boring rental cars and these two mediocre yawners finished last on most everyones list! The worst thing about all this is that many other manufacturers are copying this dreadful plain appliance look. We need a return to real car styling with American heritage and leave the Asian copycats to themselves.

[eurohazard]

Originally Posted by ponchoman49

The Camry, Corolla and Matrix look like rental cars in base and mid level form with there cheap plastic hub caps, sea of gray or black plastic interiors, plain genric slab sided appearance, no door moldings or character lines and the now done to death Camry/Mazda knock off grille that is on everything save the trucks and SUV's. Edmunds did a consumer test with the Camry vs Malibu and Accord and the Corolla vs Mazda 6 and Civic. They likened the Camry and Corolla to dull boring rental cars and these two mediocre yawners finished last on most everyones list! The worst thing about all this is that many other manufacturers are copying this dreadful plain appliance look. We need a return to real car styling with American heritage and leave the Asian copycats to themselves.

Please understand I am NOT flaming you....I respect your opinion, and can even see what you're getting at.

But for me....I say styling schmyling. I mean I drive a Nissan Armada for God's sake. "Styling" is way low on the totom pole when it comes to a vehicle I am going to purchase. Performance, meeting my needs/usage, and ergonomics far outweigh styling.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by cbennie2

I think the point is that with all the money Toyota makes on car sales, there should be no reason to have to worry about the price. But instead, they want to maintain their profits (like GM of the 60-70's) and decided the easiest way to maintain profits was to downgrade the interiors. How many people on this site complain about the crappy GM interiors, but then are willing to give Toyota a pass because they have "record profits."

On the other hand, GM who is cash strapped compared to Toyota, has realized that cheapening the interiors cannot work and has devoted considerable resources to improve in this area. With every new car launch, GM's vehicles are getting better. Toyota has no room to be complaisant with their bread and bread vehicles...

But this is the very reason that they continue to make significant profits and invest in advanced technologies that anticipate public interest. The trade off between adding certain equipment and dressing out the interiors is simply a business decision. Will the consumer go for the 'Oooooo and Ahhhhhh' or the content? Style or substance? Stitched leather or hybrid fuel economy?

These are very valid questions that the buyers have to ask themselves. I'm sure months and months of Marketing hours are being spent by all vehicle makers trying to decipher the signals to find the public's hot buttons. I find Ford's recent commercials pretty catchy. Their 'SYNCH' vehicles are doing very well.

OTOH it could very well be that Toyota has declined to fight in the arena of upscale clientele. That can be left to GM, Ford and Honda. Toyota and Hyundai will slug it out in the mud of the commonplace transportation. That's a very valid choice too. So why would they get down in that pit? Volume!!!

There is almost nothing more important in the auto industry than volume. Example... Let's say it costs a vehicle maker $2 Billion to bring a new vehicle to market. R&D, tests, more tests, new equipment, more tests, etc.
Vehicle maker A wants to shoot high with top quality features and estimates that 100,000 people annually will buy his vehicle @ $24000. That's about 500,000 buyers over the life of that generation.
Vehicle maker B wants to shoot lower with very standard features but estimates that with a lower price he can attract 300,000 buyers annually @ $20000. That's 1.5 million buyers over the life of that generation.

Both are very good manufacturers and both cover their fixed and variable costs and generate a 5% profit.

Which is a better decision?
5% of $24000 is $1200 x 500,000 units = $600 Million profit
5% of $20000 is $1000 x 1,500,00 units = $1.5 Billion profit

It's only about money.

[cbennie2]

PhishPhood, after rereading my post, what I meant to say was "the point is that with all the money Toyota makes on car sales, there should be no reason to have to worry about the price"of materials

I believe that with the added attention to details that GM has placed on current interior design and quality, we will begin to see that volume will follow. As we have seen so far, Malibu sales have continued to rise since its release. Those gains are coming from retail sales and not whoring it out as a rental queen too. The sales of Malibu's are also selling at higher transaction prices than the replaced model, meaning the money(profits) will follow.

I feel that with cars becoming more and more uniform in shape on the outside, to gain market share, manufacturers are going to need to give customers better offerings in interiors, the part of the car that you will always see will you are riding in the car. Interiors that hold up well after 3, 4, 5+ years are going to attract buyers back to the brand they have. I don't think that the interiors Toyota is currently installing in their cars will hold up.

The other point about "upscale" clientèle verses "commonplace transportation" seems off. I doubt many would say that Chevrolet's goal is to be cross-shopped with Lexus and company. Chevrolet is targeting Toyota and Honda with the new Malibu. So if a consumer is looking at a Malibu with its detailed interior verses the ho hum interior's of the others, for about the same price, people will start going with the Malibu. Especially with overall quality and mpg equal.

[BGH]

If that's true phis, then Toyota is in big trouble. They're competitive advantage came from their production process. If it can no longer outdo its rivals in that area that what's left for Toyota? They where never a leader in anything except hybrids and now everyone is coming out with them.


And didn't the CEO come out and say quality has fallen and Toyota is going to try harder to improve it?

A few months ago Toyota had a little spat with its suppliers. The reason was that Hyundai was trying to buy parts and Toyota objected. Toyota knows the most important part of its image is quality and FE.

[AkSean]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

No thanks - that would be more than a bit like a defective, unsightly in it's appearance twinkie - past it's expiration date.

Wanna' bet that June's numbers for those four products are not as good as Mays ??

IE, Corolla + Matrix + Camry + Camry Solara ?

I'm your huckleberry, I'll take that that bet. In my region alone we beat our numbers from May three days ago. Poor America123 I'm afraid your going to have to see record numbers from Toyota cars yet again. The best thing about is I know it just pisses you off.:lma o:

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by cbennie2

PhishPhood, after rereading my post, what I meant to say was "the point is that with all the money Toyota makes on car sales, there should be no reason to have to worry about the price"of materials

I believe that with the added attention to details that GM has placed on current interior design and quality, we will begin to see that volume will follow. As we have seen so far, Malibu sales have continued to rise since its release. Those gains are coming from retail sales and not whoring it out as a rental queen too. The sales of Malibu's are also selling at higher transaction prices than the replaced model, meaning the money(profits) will follow.

I feel that with cars becoming more and more uniform in shape on the outside, to gain market share, manufacturers are going to need to give customers better offerings in interiors, the part of the car that you will always see will you are riding in the car. Interiors that hold up well after 3, 4, 5+ years are going to attract buyers back to the brand they have. I don't think that the interiors Toyota is currently installing in their cars will hold up.

The other point about "upscale" clientèle verses "commonplace transportation" seems off. I doubt many would say that Chevrolet's goal is to be cross-shopped with Lexus and company. Chevrolet is targeting Toyota and Honda with the new Malibu. So if a consumer is looking at a Malibu with its detailed interior verses the ho hum interior's of the others, for about the same price, people will start going with the Malibu. Especially with overall quality and mpg equal.

Yes I agree definitely however I also think that within this huge segment of midsized and compact vehicle buyers there are significant differences in wants, needs and price expectations. A $20000 midsized buyer really doesn't want to pay $24000 -$26000 for a vehicle. IMO this buyer want's 4 wheels, 4 doors, solid reliability and no 'frills'. However one who does expect to pay $24000 - $26000 doesn't want a mundane interior. He or she expects more for their money.

Buyers it seems to me classify themselves by $-ranges. 'I'm an $18000 buyer' or 'I expect to pay $30000-$35000 for my vehicle'. Understanding what each of these buyers 'expect is the key to matching the style and content to the price expectation.

If you're aiming to satisfy the $20000 no frills buyer then putting in extra goodies or extra expense or upscale touches is wasted effort and wasted money. It depends entirely on the buying expectations of the targetted consumer. All vehicle marketing departments know this but how it's executed is the difference.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by BGH

If that's true phis, then Toyota is in big trouble. They're competitive advantage came from their production process. If it can no longer outdo its rivals in that area that what's left for Toyota? They where never a leader in anything except hybrids and now everyone is coming out with them.


And didn't the CEO come out and say quality has fallen and Toyota is going to try harder to improve it?

A few months ago Toyota had a little spat with its suppliers. The reason was that Hyundai was trying to buy parts and Toyota objected. Toyota knows the most important part of its image is quality and FE.

Actually the big benefit that Toyota has is that it's production process allows it to compete toe-to-toe in the low end of the market and still be profitable. It means that they control costs and production losses and leakage and out of spec products better than most. This is all directed toward keeping costs low. It doesn't mean that they have top quality materials across the product line, they don't.

Keeping costs low allows them to make significant profits in selling HUGE volumes of generic basic transportation. This is an area that no other maker wants to get involved in, except Hyundai. For the others there's too much risk and not enough profit in selling a bunch of $20000 midsizers when they could sell less but make more profit per vehicle selling $25000 midsizers.

Toyota and Hyundai have staked out the center-low-end of the market because that's where the most buyers are located. The rest are aiming somewhat higher but with lower volumes. Both strategies are correct!

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by AkSean

I'm your huckleberry, I'll take that that bet. In my region alone we beat our numbers from May three days ago. Poor America123 I'm afraid your going to have to see record numbers from Toyota cars yet again. The best thing about is I know it just pisses you off.:lma o:

Watch out for the not very well disguised trap. June is [almost] always a down month in comparison to May because May is the big month in the first half of the year.

It's due to seasonality and marketing thrust and it applies to all makers.

If OTOH this June is larger than this May in cars then that's a HUGE, HUGE accomplishment simply because for all makers June is the smaller month. Tomorrow will be interesting.

[BusyBody]

Originally Posted by AkSean

I'm your huckleberry, I'll take that that bet. In my region alone we beat our numbers from May three days ago. Poor America123 I'm afraid your going to have to see record numbers from Toyota cars yet again. The best thing about is I know it just pisses you off.:lma o:

Parents should ensure that they monitor their children more closely around computers.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by AkSean

I'm your huckleberry, I'll take that that bet. In my region alone we beat our numbers from May three days ago. Poor America123 I'm afraid your going to have to see record numbers from Toyota cars yet again. The best thing about is I know it just pisses you off.:lma o:

Hello AkSean, well, maybe so - maybe not.

If so, don't worry there will be plenty of other to talk about , we're going to have the 6mo. YTD stuff from everyone to look at.

Couple of possible topics there - mysterious numbers, total fails, and so forth.

And, there is always the consolation available of Toyota Motor Europe's second full season of big fail to watch - even you must find it somewhat 'humorous' when we have a discussion of which GM divsion to cut - when Lexus has managed to sell approx 12,500 vehicles across all of Europe - in the first five months of 2008.

There is no bigger fail occurring amongst the majors than Lexus in Europe.

Lexus in Japan and the US gives you the trifecta of premium brand failure worldwide.

So, if in fact, the 'big 4' product at Toyota have a great month in NA, it's not really necessary to get pissed - there will be plenty more to work with.

Here, I'll help you out a bit.

Name the 10 slowest selling products in America with a initial MSRP BELOW 100K.

So there is no confusion, that would be total unit count.

Now include those with an initial MSRP of 105k and below.

Now look at everything below 150k the same way.

Now don't cry, once we get all the numbers from everywhere it's going to 'interesting' - for all of them - except possibly Honda.

BTW, Two relevant questions.

At what point if at all, will Toyota throw in the Towel on the Avalon - there is no way they'll try to keep going with this one till 2012.

As a counterpoint to that kind of thinking, could you help clarify my memory concerning the first Gen Lexus GS300 ?

Can't remember which year it was that they sold 189 for the entire calender year - do recall it was the last year of the first gen.

Btw, given the favorable initial buzz concerning the new Fusion, Milan and Mazda 6, how do you expect the Camry will be affected by the three together - in the last quarter of 2008.

[BGH]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

Actually the big benefit that Toyota has is that it's production process allows it to compete toe-to-toe in the low end of the market and still be profitable. It means that they control costs and production losses and leakage and out of spec products better than most. This is all directed toward keeping costs low. It doesn't mean that they have top quality materials across the product line, they don't.

Keeping costs low allows them to make significant profits in selling HUGE volumes of generic basic transportation. This is an area that no other maker wants to get involved in, except Hyundai. For the others there's too much risk and not enough profit in selling a bunch of $20000 midsizers when they could sell less but make more profit per vehicle selling $25000 midsizers.

Toyota and Hyundai have staked out the center-low-end of the market because that's where the most buyers are located. The rest are aiming somewhat higher but with lower volumes. Both strategies are correct!

Look at your previous post, you say Toyota can't compete with Hyundai without reducing quality. That tells me they have lost that competitive advantage. They used to make excellent quality cars that where very competitive in terms of pricing now your saying that can't do that.

And its not like Toyota prices have gone down. They have in fact been rising and are still a few thousand dollars more expensive than anything from Korea. And if you haven't noticed Hyundai has been trying to get rid of its cheap image and bring up the prestige of the brand.

What your saying contradicts the recent actions of both companies. And their near term marketing plans for their new products.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by BusyBody

Parents should ensure that they monitor their children more closely around computers.

Well, you got around it - so I'm not confident that's the solution here.

[AMERICA 123]

Ahhhh, we have more good news - for the Domestic three - and the Europeans and more bad news for Toyota concerning "appeal'.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4840826&EDATE=

AutoPacific Announces 2008 Ideal Vehicle Awards

2008 Ideal Premium Brand: Porsche

2008 Ideal Mainstream Brand: Ford

2008 Ideal Product Segment: Large Crossover SUV

----------


Top-rated 2008 Ideal Vehicles:

Passenger Cars:


Premium Luxury Car Mercedes-Benz S-Class

Aspirational Luxury Car Cadillac CTS/Volvo C70

Large Luxury Car Mercury Grand Marquis

Large Car Mercury Sable

Luxury Mid-Size Car Volvo S40

Premium Mid-Size Car Buick LaCrosse/Chevrolet Malibu

Mid-Size Car Ford Fusion

Image Compact Car Volvo C30

Compact Car Volkswagen Rabbit

Economy Car Nissan Versa

Premium Sports Car Porsche 911/Cayman/Boxster

Sports Car Mazda MX-5 Miata

Sporty Car Ford Mustang

************************************************** ************


Pickups, SUVs, and Minivans:



Large Light-Duty Pickup Ford F-150/Chevrolet Silverado

Large Heavy-Duty Pickup Ford Super Duty

Compact Pickup Ford Explorer Sport Trac

Luxury Sport Utility Lincoln Navigator

Large Sport Utility Ford Expedition EL

Premium Mid-Size Sport Utility Chevrolet Trail Blazer/Toyota
4Runner/GMC Envoy

Mid-Size Sport Utility Kia Sorento/Jeep Liberty

Compact SUV/Off-Road Vehicle Suzuki Grand Vitara

Premium Luxury Crossover SUV Audi Q7

Luxury Crossover SUV Buick Enclave

Large Crossover SUV Ford Taurus X

Premium Mid-Size Crossover SUV Ford Edge

Mid-Size Crossover SUV Ford Escape

Compact Crossover SUV Subaru Forester

Minivan Toyota Sienna/Hyundai Entourage

In addition to identifying segment winners, IVA also establishes
numerical ideal vehicle ratings for virtually every passenger car and light
truck in the United States market. This results from calculating owner
input across 15 specific areas related to a vehicle's attributes,
including: exterior styling, exterior size, passenger roominess, cargo
space, driver's seat comfort, driver's seat visibility, interior
technology, interior lighting, power and acceleration, ease of getting in
and out, interior storage compartments, ride, handling, safety features and
tires and wheels.

Well look at that.

Not one Scion.

Not one Lexus.

One, oops, - TWO for Toyota.