Toyota Corolla, Matrix, and Camry losin' their A.p.p.e.a.l.

[Mr. Burns]

Originally Posted by BusyBody

Ah Mr. Burns, the defender of anything/anyone anti-GM.

Please define anti-GM and point me to any posts in this thread by anyone that I have "defended" that suggests anything "anti-GM".

In all the time I have been here, I have rarely seen a pro-GM post by plane, but plenty of anti-import stuff. Unfortunately that seems to be all that is needed these days to be a GM fan. Hate the imports.

If it weren't for these "anti-GM" folks here you guys keep rambling on about, this site would be a fantasyland for the import haters, instead of an intellectual source for GM fans and enthusiasts.

[Mr. Burns]

Originally Posted by plane

Please do elaborate.
I posted the JD Powers press release which clearly shows that APEAL is based on consumer responses, not advertising impact as he claimed.

He responded with a <censored> answer, to which I provided what I thought was ample clarification.

I'd like to know, regardless of the answer:

if the rankings correlate with future demand, please tell me how Saturn continues to have poor sales after being on the list last year, and why Chevy did something so stupid as to axe the Monte Carlo.

[plane]

Originally Posted by Mr. Burns

In all the time I have been here, I have rarely seen a pro-GM post by plane, but plenty of anti-import stuff. Unfortunately that seems to be all that is needed these days to be a GM fan. Hate the imports.

Burns,

Why do you even post this drivel?
What you just posted is untruth and you know it.
Your utter lack of profundity and apparent willingness to hedge the truth only serves to highlight your inexperience and uni-dimensional flatlander belief system.

Don't make me hurt you with the truth.
Just go away, find another thread to bother.
Ok?

<shakes head sadly>

[Mr. Burns]

Originally Posted by plane

Burns,

Why do you even post this drivel?
What you just posted is untruth and you know it.
Your utter lack of profundity and apparent willingness to hedge the truth only serves to highlight your inexperience and uni-dimensional flatlander belief system.

Don't make me hurt you with the truth.
Just go away, find another thread to bother.
Ok?

<shakes head sadly>

Hey, it's just something I've observed. I don't read all your posts, so I may be wrong. But please enlighten me with this truth of which you speak, you can start by answering those questions.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

'Stagnate' is a subjective viewpoint at best.

No, not really - plane nailed as far as certain product attributes go.
It is part of something bigger - part of a 'grand strategy' - it may work or it may backfire.
In any case, tradeoffs have been made concerning the product.
Plane may have nailed it overall -time will tell.

How about 'It's time that the rest of the world caught up.'

Toyota is accomplishing only part of what American Automotive firms had figured out and accomplished - well before World War 2. They have not figured out how to 'do it' while 'producing it' here - the American firms under different circumstances did.

There has never been a nation engaged in manufacturing that was more productive and got more accomplished than the United States did in that War - I'm talking the homefront not the battlefront.

The closest second would be the former USSR during that same conflict.

Toyota in an absolute sense is extremely unlikely to reach the heights that GM had in the 50s and 60s.

So the question is not when will 'the world' 'catch up' - its more an issue of when will America awaken and remember and make a 180 - turning towards a type of restoration that includes a highly favorable environment for domestic manufacturing.

Odds are, she won't, and the odds are that GM also will never dominate as it once did - but because the world's a pretty big market at this point - and getting bigger - faster outside the US, GM can and will dominate Toyota again, eventually.

Doubt it ? Take a look at who's running the world - certainly not well or in a way to be proud -nor is what we should be doing - but well, there it is - and whatever you want to say about it, it is not Japanese.

Also, take a look if you can at who exactly and I DO MEAN WHO EXACTLY has money in Toyota.

Japan plays for now - soon to be replaced by China - an important but nonetheless subservient role in Pax Americana.

The key determinate now for GM is actually how fast it can reduce the importance of both the NA market and NA as a manufacturing sector by growth outside the US.

Co related, can the Yen subsidy and the unlevel playing field be partially redressed ?

BTW, Toyota has never had it all together all at once as far as product goes.

No, they have been a very good, very successful (in a rigged situation) - type of McDonalds or other successful fastfood Corporation as opposed to something else, something more substantial - and desirable.

One of the real annoyances of those disliking the Camry and Corolla is 'How do they continue to sell as many as they do year after year after year? They're to bland.' Hint: Some people may be more aware of the the buying public's needs than other people are.

Yea, well, they had a lot behind that - when they had it - most especially the money to make mistakes and shake them off and the money to go after 10 year plans that don't earn a thing during that period.

Some people have the high ground on an unlevel playing field.

Some people have a substantial Yen subsidy.

Some people can employ labor in Japan for as little as 2.67 to 3.32 an hour for 75 hours a week and treat the laborer like a dog.

BTW, those same people have yet to make anything automotive as reliable and durable as the 1960 thru 1976 Plymouth Valiant series.

Some other people have all that working against them.

And finally some people just don't like a dirty player that's ruining the industry and helping to do the same or more accurately is willing to be the tool destroying the homeland.

Its not the products themselves that are so unlikable - I can't stand them - so what, others do - that's whats great about choice.

No, its not the cars, for many at this point its not even bothersome that they're an import and things like that.

No, its something more fundamental.

Its the Corporate character - the truly reprehensible two faced dishonesty - and the costs being paid by others because of it - that's whats more than a 'little' bothersome.

At this point, sad to say there is a constructive role for Toyota to have in America.

Three basic characteristics of that would be 90% of the parts and 90% of vehicles assembled in NA netting an acceptable 81% domestic rating - assuming that was done under decent conditions and pay and without the spin.

Well, hell, that's a nonstarter - they wouldn't survive much less prosper under those 'restraints'.

Toyota doesn't really want to become a real American/Canadian firm - they just want to fool everybody into thinking that they already are.

[plane]

Originally Posted by Mr. Burns

I'd like to know, regardless of the answer:

Burns, my response did address that but apparently in a manner far too subtle for you to comprehend.

The simple answer is that you cannot skate on reputation. GM can't do it. Ford can't do it. Toyota cannot either.

APEAL measures customer perceptions of purchased vehicles. Those perceptions lead to brand perception. Toyota has built up enormous goodwill due to prior products, but as you can witness in this thread, when it cheaps out interiors, delivers poor gas mileage, and provides massive numbers of defective Toyota products

• Sienna sliding doors
• 3 million sludged engines
• Prii that can't drive in the snow
• Prii that suddenly stop on the highway
• Tacomas with frame rot
• Tacomas with unexpected acceleration problems
• Tacomas where the air bag sensor was deactivated instead of repaired
• And the list goes on and on and on like the energizer bunny

Consumers tend to take note.
Build great perceptions of value and the sales will follow.
Dump on your customers and they will desert you.
We've all acknowledged this works for GM.
Why wouldn't you acknowledge this is true for Toyota?

For you to argue otherwise smacks of fecund partisanship.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by BGH

If you want to make an argument that the current Camry is better than the last. Go ahead, but the old camrys i've been in held up far better then the new Gen 6s i've been in. Come on man, if my sis could notice they cheaped out so should you.

And its not like i just sat in one for 5 mins. I was working at a dealership and they used to bring them in and they where only a few months and you could tell the last gens where better. I'm talking reliability, not FE, performance or refinement

Outside of the 6 spd tranny in the initial year's production the rest of the entire production of 4c/5 spds and the hybrids have all been dead solid perfect. There are no issues with them. Remember the CamCords are primarily 4c models. After that first year there have been no followup issues on the 6 spds. The programming was modified...the problems went away.

If things were that bad there's no way that the Camry would be setting record after record with all the other good choices available. As has been noted here the Camry is middle of the pack with multiple vehicles apparently far better than it. But it still sells like mad. WTF is going on?

Maybe, just maybe, the buying public has a different perception.

[AMERICA 123]

So true plane, Toyota 'boosters sound an awful lot like GM 'boosters' did many years ago.

'Somebody' once remarked about 'there's nothing new under the sun.'

A different somebody much later remarked along the lines 'same ****. different day.

Both would seem to apply here to your post's observations

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by plane

Burns, my response did address that but apparently in a manner far too subtle for you to comprehend.

The simple answer is that you cannot skate on reputation. GM can't do it. Ford can't do it. Toyota cannot either.

APEAL measures customer perceptions of purchased vehicles. Those perceptions lead to brand perception. Toyota has built up enormous goodwill due to prior products, but as you can witness in this thread, when it cheaps out interiors, delivers poor gas mileage, and provides massive numbers of defective Toyota products

• Sienna sliding doors
• 3 million sludged engines
• Prii that can't drive in the snow
• Prii that suddenly stop on the highway
• Tacomas with frame rot
• Tacomas with unexpected acceleration problems
• Tacomas where the air bag sensor was deactivated instead of repaired
• And the list goes on and on and on like the energizer bunny

Consumers tend to take note.
Build great perceptions of value and the sales will follow.
Dump on your customers and they will desert you.
We've all acknowledged this works for GM.
Why wouldn't you acknowledge this is true for Toyota?

For you to argue otherwise smacks of fecund partisanship.

Some of the foregoing is accurate, some is false and some is an exageration. But here is a key difference. All of these issues were addressed, solved and the clients satisfied. No vehicle maker uses divine hands. It's a human process. However dealing with the problems when they occur in a customer-oriented manner keeps that client loyal...probably forever.

But I hear the Ah Ha! coming. Oil sludge. Not their best hour for sure, but a great learning experience. It was finally settled with no legal liability ( c.f. DexCool settlement this year ) and in the meanwhile Camry sales rocket to No 1 in NA, Toyota sales soar to No 1 in the world and No 2 in NA. Something was done right. Sludge in some engines in fact had no effect at all on anything. But it's good for forum fodder, enjoy.

[plane]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

Some of the foregoing is accurate, some is false and some is an exageration. But here is a key difference. All of these issues were addressed, solved and the clients satisfied. No vehicle maker uses divine hands. It's a human process. However dealing with the problems when they occur in a customer-oriented manner keeps that client loyal...probably forever.

But I hear the Ah Ha! coming. Oil sludge. Not their best hour for sure, but a great learning experience. It was finally settled with no legal liability ( c.f. DexCool settlement this year ) and in the meanwhile Camry sales rocket to No 1 in NA, Toyota sales soar to No 1 in the world and No 2 in NA. Something was done right. Sludge in some engines in fact had no effect at all on anything. But it's good for forum fodder, enjoy.

Originally Posted by AdvertisingAge

"I don't think Toyota is immune to pitfalls,"

You have personally spoken with everyone that has been shafted by a crappy Toyota product?
Come on, you know I provided examples that are truthful, that did occur, and that Toyota had to deal with.

Why are you singlehandedly trying to apologize for Toyota mediocrity in this one instance?
Why are you trying to pretend that Toyota is shooting for the middle of the curve?
The APEAL scores are from the buying public, from Toyota customers.
Do you understand this?
And do you not also understand that when your customer perceptions go south,
eventually so does your business? Why would you try to pretend otherwise?

Why do you think the Civic is outselling the Corolla? It's perceived to be a better product.
Why do you think the Corolla outsells the Cobalt? It's perceived to be a better product.
However, once you loose that perception, you loose sales, plain and simple.

Enough pretenses.
I want you to know that if I was forced/paid to regurgitate the Toyota party line in the manner that you seem so eloquently capable of doing, I would probably cover myself in honey, bury myself in sand next to an African Ant Colony, let loose a brood of vipers and hang myself at the exact moment of detonation of a 4lb c-4 charge strapped to my body.

And if that sad truth resonates at all with you, fear not, the Boys Town National Hotline is 1-800-448-3000.
Call.
You'll be glad you did.

[Mr. Burns]

Originally Posted by plane

Burns, my response did address that but apparently in a manner far too subtle for you to comprehend.

The simple answer is that you cannot skate on reputation. GM can't do it. Ford can't do it. Toyota cannot either.

APEAL measures customer perceptions of purchased vehicles. Those perceptions lead to brand perception. Toyota has built up enormous goodwill due to prior products, but as you can witness in this thread, when it cheaps out interiors, delivers poor gas mileage, and provides massive numbers of defective Toyota products

• Sienna sliding doors
• 3 million sludged engines
• Prii that can't drive in the snow
• Prii that suddenly stop on the highway
• Tacomas with frame rot
• Tacomas with unexpected acceleration problems
• Tacomas where the air bag sensor was deactivated instead of repaired
• And the list goes on and on and on like the energizer bunny

Consumers tend to take note.
Build great perceptions of value and the sales will follow.
Dump on your customers and they will desert you.
We've all acknowledged this works for GM.
Why wouldn't you acknowledge this is true for Toyota?

For you to argue otherwise smacks of fecund partisanship.

I completely acknowledge this is happening to toyota, and nowhere have I said I don't. But what I can't understand is what the "appeal" survey has to do with it. Slipping in quality? there is a quality survey for that. Poor fuel economy? the EPA takes care of that, but what exactly does the appeal study do that is of significance?

Now I know, the survey looks to see which cars are the most appealing, and it's great to see some of GM's finest at the top of that list, but, as others have argued, I don't see this survey as an indicator of future sales, or else ferraris would be outselling everything else.

Like the Saturns that haven't done too well or the Monte Carlo that was axed, all despite ranking pretty respectably in appeal surveys.

Personally I think "appeal" is completely subjective, one man's aztek is another's range rover, and if you really want to see what consumers are thinking and doing, compare end of the month/year sales numbers for vehicles you're interested in, and see if they've slipped relative to their competition, stagnated, or are doing well. Because the ultimate vote is with the wallet. Some people may place reliability as their highest priority, and thus less willing to take a risk with manufacturers they don't trust, despite finding their cars appealing. They might look to buy the most fuel efficient car, even if they really like the Astra and so on.

[Mr. Burns]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

Outside of the 6 spd tranny in the initial year's production the rest of the entire production of 4c/5 spds and the hybrids have all been dead solid perfect. There are no issues with them. Remember the CamCords are primarily 4c models. After that first year there have been no followup issues on the 6 spds. The programming was modified...the problems went away.

If things were that bad there's no way that the Camry would be setting record after record with all the other good choices available. As has been noted here the Camry is middle of the pack with multiple vehicles apparently far better than it. But it still sells like mad. WTF is going on?

Maybe, just maybe, the buying public has a different perception.

I disagree. Every new toyota model has been consistently worse than the one it replaces, at least as far as build/assembly and materials quality goes (reliability no one can speak for tho). From my observations I think placing the Camry midpack is fair, and that it is a prime example of how toyota are now just riding on their reputation and their superb PR and advertising. I think people are just too scared to take the "risk" and buy anything else, and that the other manufacturers haven't yet given a convincing enough a reason for buyers to switch.

The new Corolla is an even better example. From my time in it it's pretty much the same as the older one (but without the stellar build quality). So while the competition like mazda and honda have released exciting cars that are now just as solid and efficient (although the civics I've been in have all had perhaps some of the worst interiors I've seen in my short time on earth, build and materials wise), toyota goes about making essentially the same car again, but skimping on the quality. I was quite appalled by the build and materials on the new Corolla.

I think that's a great example of "who cares what it is, it's a corolla, and thus people will buy it" mentality on toyota's part, and I think they're right, people will buy it just because it's a corolla.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Mr. Burns

I disagree. Every new toyota model has been consistently worse than the one it replaces, at least as far as build/assembly and materials quality goes (reliability no one can speak for tho). From my observations I think placing the Camry midpack is fair, and that it is a prime example of how toyota are now just riding on their reputation and their superb PR and advertising. I think people are just too scared to take the "risk" and buy anything else, and that the other manufacturers haven't yet given a convincing enough a reason for buyers to switch.

The new Corolla is an even better example. From my time in it it's pretty much the same as the older one (but without the stellar build quality). So while the competition like mazda and honda have released exciting cars that are now just as solid and efficient (although the civics I've been in have all had perhaps some of the worst interiors I've seen in my short time on earth, build and materials wise), toyota goes about making essentially the same car again, but skimping on the quality. I was quite appalled by the build and materials on the new Corolla.

I think that's a great example of "who cares what it is, it's a corolla, and thus people will buy it" mentality on toyota's part, and I think they're right, people will buy it just because it's a corolla.

I don't disagree about the materials but I do disagree about the build quality. The Gen 5 Camry was nothing to write home about. The Gen 9 Corolla in it's first year was plagued with dash rattles that were solved immediately and never arose again. But that Gen9 got horrible marks all through its life for seating and steering wheel position. These by owners.

But what is missing from all this discussion is that the content of both the Gen 6 Camry and the Gen 10 Corolla has increased dramatically while the price is only slightly changed. Frankly something HAD to give....it was the interiors.

From Gen 9 to Gen 10
The vehicle got 3" wider to address the interior room complaints, lack thereof.
The seating got bigger and more comfortable
The steering wheel added telescoping
6 standard airbags replaced 2 standard airbags
Active Headrest Restraints Technology replaced old fashioned headrests
Dual VVTi was added to increase both power and fuel economy
The frame was stiffened
ABS / BA / EBD became standard where it was an option before.
AUX input was added along with Satellite availability.

This is just the base model 5 spd manual which today sells for $15900, the Gen 9 CE equivalent 5 spd manual listed for $15100. So for $800 they made a more powerful ( slightly ), more fuel efficient, safer, more stable, more comfortable basic commuter.

OK the interior was cheapened. Something had to give. The public sees the changes. It's selling like mad it's all in the numbers.

[GMusa]

Originally Posted by New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66

I agree. Nissan is the new "it" Japanese manufacturer.

I disagree.. the only reason people think that is becuase of the GT-R. Besides that they dont stand out anymore then Toyota. And the GT-R just got pushed to the back round with the new Acura and Lexus supercars running the 'Ring. And even more with news that the ZR-1 killed the GT-R's lap time!

[GMusa]

Originally Posted by plane

Burns, my response did address that but apparently in a manner far too subtle for you to comprehend.

The simple answer is that you cannot skate on reputation. GM can't do it. Ford can't do it. Toyota cannot either.

APEAL measures customer perceptions of purchased vehicles. Those perceptions lead to brand perception. Toyota has built up enormous goodwill due to prior products, but as you can witness in this thread, when it cheaps out interiors, delivers poor gas mileage, and provides massive numbers of defective Toyota products

• Sienna sliding doors
• 3 million sludged engines
• Prii that can't drive in the snow
• Prii that suddenly stop on the highway
• Tacomas with frame rot
• Tacomas with unexpected acceleration problems
• Tacomas where the air bag sensor was deactivated instead of repaired
• And the list goes on and on and on like the energizer bunny

Consumers tend to take note.
Build great perceptions of value and the sales will follow.
Dump on your customers and they will desert you.
We've all acknowledged this works for GM.
Why wouldn't you acknowledge this is true for Toyota?

For you to argue otherwise smacks of fecund partisanship.

Thats what happens when you grow too fast. It happened to GM. Now Toyota's that are coming off the line are junk from the word go. I would much rather see GM have good, strong vehicles then be in the #1 spot with junk coming off the lines. I say... let Toyota be #1, they cant take all the problems that come with it!