Toyota Corolla, Matrix, and Camry losin' their A.p.p.e.a.l.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Vladimir1978

The fanboys will never understand. Toyota products are aimed for the middle of the bell curve,

Horse puckey.

Toyota has very rarely shot for just mid pack - and never for anything lower.

Toyota and Lexus as a group used to more often then not, dominate JD Powers various surveys and even when not dominating they did better, a lot better than they are now.

Case in point, the Camry did better, also a lot better, on the A.P.P.E.A.L. survey from 2003 back. Same as far as the IQS results.

The other key point was their relative positioning - the rest did worse as a group back then. Try and find one pre 2004 owner survey where the Camry was midpack as it is here.

And whether or not the data is for a 2008 or a 2009, post up anything you got that ranks the Corolla so low ie in the bottom 25% - prior to 2005.

[plane]

Originally Posted by Mr. Burns

...you didn't really answer his questions.

Please do elaborate.
I posted the JD Powers press release which clearly shows that APEAL is based on consumer responses, not advertising impact as he claimed.

He responded with a <censored> answer, to which I provided what I thought was ample clarification.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by BGH

My questions was where did previous camrys place. I have no idea how that second question answers mine, but the camry came out early in the spring of 07. I think it was April.

The Accord was officially released in september 2008 and the malibu came out after that.

The 6th gen Camry pricing information was released on 23FEB2006.

Sales commenced somewhere between 3MARCH2006 and 3April2006 - as an early release 2007MYR offering.

The current gen Avalon was an early first intro and they jicky jacked the 2009 Camry date as well.
************************************************** ************************************************** *************

I'm correcting this post that was based off of a poorly written press release - 1OCT2007 was the release date for the MYR 2008 Camry.

[plane]

Originally Posted by BGH

My questions was where did previous camrys place. I have no idea how that second question answers mine, but the camry came out early in the spring of 07. I think it was April.

The Accord was officially released in september 2008 and the malibu came out after that.

The Accord, Camry and Malibu are not separated by a great deal of time.
For IQS (which incorporates APEAL)-
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Toyota/.../Sedan/ratings
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Toyota/.../Sedan/ratings
The 2007 Camry ranks significantly below the 2006 version.

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Horse pukey.

Toyota has very rarely shot for just mid pack - and never for anything lower.

Toyota and Lexus as a group used to more often then not, dominate JD Powers various surveys and even when not dominating they did better, a lot better than they are now.

Case in point, the Camry did better, also a lot better, on the A.P.P.E.A.L. survey from 2003 back. Same as far as the IQS results.

The other key point was their relative positioning - the rest did worse as a group back then. Try and find one pre 2004 owner survey where the Camry was midpack as it is here.

And whether or not the data is for a 2008 or a 2009, post up anything you got that ranks the Corolla so low ie in the bottom 25% - prior to 2005.

Exactly. 100% right on the money.
Competitors have improved while Toyota has stagnated.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Vladimir1978

The fanboys will never understand. Toyota products are aimed for the middle of the bell curve, and with their reliability history and the halo they've rightfully earned over the last 20 years, the only way they'll fall is if they make a series of huge missteps and/or quality blunders. Nothing in the last few years equates to anything of the sort, and even if it did, it won't just be one model cycle that will do it, just like GM didn't go in the tank after one bad generation of vehicles.

Now, answer the question- if the rankings correlate with future demand, please tell me how Saturn continues to have poor sales after being on the list last year, and why Chevy did something so stupid as to axe the Monte Carlo. There are more examples by the way- just throwing those two out there. These lists are akin to 'buzz'- that's why they're directly tied to advertising and new model rollouts, a point that has eluded you. In 2 years when a new Camry comes out and it's on top of this list, while the 2 year old Malibu is ranked #10, I'm sure we'll be having this same discussion.

This is well put because the one point all of the auto enthusiast fanboi's miss is that for the largest segment of the buying public, that segment where all the volume and most of the profit is, don't care one whit about auto enthusiast hot spots. Most of the driving public hates vehicles, hates driving, hates the buying experience, hates having to pay more and more for an asset that's worthless in the end. Vehicles are money sinkholes and driving is an unmitigated bore for the bulk of the population.

It's refreshing to have a vehicle that costs next to nothing to own and is essentially like a refrigerator. It's always there, it always opens and it's always cold. On the manufacturer's side it just generates massive profits year after year after year. Since it's a huge market there's room for all kinds of flavors including the most popular flavor, vanilla.

Everybody seems happy it appears. The smaller manufacturers are getting good reports, the buying public gets what it wants and the largest manufacturer keeps increasing volume and profits. That sounds pretty positive all around.

Actually with the massive surge toward all small vehicles the rising tide of public interest will raise ALL ships. Every maker should do very very well here.

[chickenkicker]

Originally Posted by Vladimir1978

Two more numbers to chew on.

Corolla/Matrix- 52,826
Camry- 51,291

Post all the tripe you want- people are buying these cars, and they're buying them without a ton of cash on the hood.

The Toyota dealer near me is offering $1100 off of new Corollas so there is some cash on their hoods already.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by chickenkicker

The Toyota dealer near me is offering $1100 off of new Corollas so there is some cash on their hoods already.

You misinterpret the terminology. That's a local issue. He might have an incompetent staff. 'Cash on the Hood' generally refers to manufacturer rebates.

For reference see the Chevy website and the $2000 incentive on the Cobalts.

[BGH]

Originally Posted by plane

The Accord, Camry and Malibu are not separated by a great deal of time.
For IQS (which incorporates APEAL)-
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Toyota/.../Sedan/ratings
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Toyota/.../Sedan/ratings
The 2007 Camry ranks significantly below the 2006 version.





Exactly. 100% right on the money.
Competitors have improved while Toyota has stagnated.

The new Camry isn't as good as the old. I know that from personal experience. It only takes about 5 mins to in a new camry to realize that. But I would like to see its APEAL studies along instead of grouped with something else. And its not like it did that bad this time round either.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by plane

The Accord, Camry and Malibu are not separated by a great deal of time.
For IQS (which incorporates APEAL)-
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Toyota/.../Sedan/ratings
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Toyota/.../Sedan/ratings
The 2007 Camry ranks significantly below the 2006 version.





Exactly. 100% right on the money.
Competitors have improved while Toyota has stagnated.

There is no doubt that competitors have improved. The midsized and compact segments are the hottest now with the widest range of good vehicles. They're also becoming the largest segments volume-wise.

'Stagnate' is a subjective viewpoint at best. How about 'It's time that the rest of the world caught up.' We have a long way to go to see what the effects of this increased competition is....several years anyway. Increased competition is good for all of us.

If the Camry and Corolla begin to fade then your 'Ah Ha!' may be warranted. If they continue to set record after record and multiply profits year after year then you may have to consider some other dynamic (see above post about the buying public's desires).

One of the real annoyances of those disliking the Camry and Corolla is 'How do they continue to sell as many as they do year after year after year? They're to bland.' Hint: Some people may be more aware of the the buying public's needs than other people are.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by BGH

The new Camry isn't as good as the old. I know that from personal experience. It only takes about 5 mins to in a new camry to realize that. But I would like to see its APEAL studies along instead of grouped with something else. And its not like it did that bad this time round either.

You have no clue as to what you just wrote. 5 min in one expresses that perfectly. The prior Gen 5 was one of the worst of recent times, yet it still outsold all the rest. The Gen 6 is worlds better... I will leave the explanation to the student for homework. Two hints: V6 and TCH.

[Aprime]

Originally Posted by Mr. Burns

How can you rate something like appeal, something that is subjective? Unless I'm missing something.

... You just do?

I couldn't tell you the questions they asked to determine it, as I'm not a surveyor, but looks, features and price probably were. All three may be subjective to personal taste, but that's the thing, if everyone <3 one woman, you'd say she's appealing, wouldn't you? :v

Heck, there's probably a reason why it's called A.P.P.E.A.L. rather than simply appeal.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

This is well put because the one point all of the auto enthusiast fanboi's miss is that for the largest segment of the buying public, that segment where all the volume and most of the profit is, don't care one whit about auto enthusiast hot spots. Most of the driving public hates vehicles, hates driving, hates the buying experience, hates having to pay more and more for an asset that's worthless in the end. Vehicles are money sinkholes and driving is an unmitigated bore for the bulk of the population.

Great point PhishPhood - that's whose been filling out the surveys at JD Powers when Toyota and Lexus were winning and are now losing ground.

Or wait, I get it - it was non enthusiasts who previously scored them high and enthusiasts who hijacked the process - and that's whose filling out the surveys that now score them low.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

You misinterpret the terminology. That's a local issue. He might have an incompetent staff. 'Cash on the Hood' generally refers to manufacturer rebates.

For reference see the Chevy website and the $2000 incentive on the Cobalts.

Yea, although still not as sad a story as a peak reported 2,000.00 on the hood of the Prius last year and with an estimated 1600.00$ per unit sold average for the year.

Wouldn't be surprised if it was even a little more - all those bulk buyer and or PR 'placements' cost are so hard to figure out.

Would it be fair you think to include local bribe money from say an 'overzealous' Dealer - who you can count on it, isn't going to reveal if he was just a functional go between ?

[BGH]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

You have no clue as to what you just wrote. 5 min in one expresses that perfectly. The prior Gen 5 was one of the worst of recent times, yet it still outsold all the rest. The Gen 6 is worlds better... I will leave the explanation to the student for homework. Two hints: V6 and TCH.

If you want to make an argument that the current Camry is better than the last. Go ahead, but the old camrys i've been in held up far better then the new Gen 6s i've been in. Come on man, if my sis could notice they cheaped out so should you.

And its not like i just sat in one for 5 mins. I was working at a dealership and they used to bring them in and they where only a few months and you could tell the last gens where better. I'm talking reliability, not FE, performance or refinement

[BusyBody]

Originally Posted by Mr. Burns

...you didn't really answer his questions.

Ah Mr. Burns, the defender of anything/anyone anti-GM.