Toyota applies a choke hold on Ford's hybrid program

[ricers-shaft-big3]

Ford slams Toyota on hybrids

Ford faces shortages of crucial parts from components manufacturers -- which are longtime suppliers, and in some cases affiliates, of Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co., the leaders in hybrids.

Ford is tripling its hybrid SUV lineup over three years. But its transmission supplier, Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., can boost deliveries by only 20 percent, to 24,000 transmissions annually. "Aisin, which is minority-controlled by Toyota, has interesting shareholders they have to answer to," said Mary Ann Wright, director of Ford's hybrid programs research and advanced engineering.

"We must be able to ramp up production and migrate the technology to more models, but we can't do that if the know-how resides abroad," said Phil Martens, Ford's group vice president for product creation.

And this is where it gets interesting

Toyota owns 23 percent of Aisin. The chairman of Aisin, Kanshiro Toyoda, is a member of the automaker's founding family.

Ford is already lining up new partners. For the Fusion and Milan hybrids coming out in 2008, it is switching the bulk of its battery orders to Delphi Corp. from Sanyo, one of Honda's battery suppliers
Troy-based Delphi hopes to produce hybrid batteries not only for Ford but for other automakers too.

Now we all know that Delphi is on the verge of bancruptcy; so where does Ford go from there?

Full article here:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins...A01-272872.htm

[FoMoCo Fan]

Here is some more info about the Ford vs. Toyota hybrid thing. It's an interesting story that goes all the way back to technology invented by Henry Ford and used on the Model T, Ford's acquisition of Volvo, and Aisin and Toyota.

http://www.auto-careers.org/ford_esc...made_by_ai.htm

[goblue]

Wow - this is a problem. GM was very smart to build it all into the trans, totally within their control, how simple. If GM could only get this system out faster. Why Ford used a design - even if it was completely independent - that was anything similar to Toyota is beyond me. This will continue to haunt Ford - GM is coming late to the passenger vehicle party, but based on the $1500 thing I saw, Ford is going to get lapped. GM and DCX have designed a better mousetrap, we'll have to see how it performs, but how elegantly simple - want a hybrid, drop in a battery pack and swap the trans. Ever seen the engine bay of a Prius? Nowhere near as simple.

[GMCSonoma]

Aisin got it's start from a US company, as I'm told...Borg-Warner.

[GM-10]

this couldn't be! not from our benevolent Japanese automotive saviors! not from the people that want to save GM!

Slightly two faced,....don'tcha think?

[86fleet]

Originally Posted by goblue

Wow - this is a problem. GM was very smart to build it all into the trans, totally within their control, how simple. If GM could only get this system out faster. Why Ford used a design - even if it was completely independent - that was anything similar to Toyota is beyond me. This will continue to haunt Ford - GM is coming late to the passenger vehicle party, but based on the $1500 thing I saw, Ford is going to get lapped. GM and DCX have designed a better mousetrap, we'll have to see how it performs, but how elegantly simple - want a hybrid, drop in a battery pack and swap the trans. Ever seen the engine bay of a Prius? Nowhere near as simple.

Exactly. As much as we like to critizize GM for being slow in introducing new technology, spending the time to build it better (and in this case different) is often worth it.

[Tiger]

Yeah, but I'm sure that Toyota wants to save the environment MORE than reserve themselves profits...right!?

[ScottyFLM]

Originally Posted by GMCSonoma

Aisin got it's start from a US company, as I'm told...Borg-Warner.

also Borg-Warner, if i remember right, use to be affiliated with Ford

[91z4me]

Aren't ford and GM making FWD 6 speed autos together? Could it be that Ford was using this other company as a stop gap till the new 6 speed is ready?

[DMC]

Isn't the 5-speed auto in the Equinox/Torrent made by Aisin?

[asim]

Originally Posted by goblue

Wow - this is a problem. GM was very smart to build it all into the trans, totally within their control, how simple. If GM could only get this system out faster. Why Ford used a design - even if it was completely independent - that was anything similar to Toyota is beyond me. This will continue to haunt Ford - GM is coming late to the passenger vehicle party, but based on the $1500 thing I saw, Ford is going to get lapped. GM and DCX have designed a better mousetrap, we'll have to see how it performs, but how elegantly simple - want a hybrid, drop in a battery pack and swap the trans. Ever seen the engine bay of a Prius? Nowhere near as simple.

GM is very smart, many people don't realize it though.

[HEVguy]

I definitely agree with GM's decision to keep the capability in-house... Ford should bring it back in house too (they own A LOT of the IP and licensed any overlap), and stop the dependency on a competitor-owned supplier.

My personal feeling is that Ford's price for the Aisin hybrid tranny is probably subsidizing Toy's work anyway!! (pure speculation of course)

[goblue]

Originally Posted by asim

GM is very smart, many people don't realize it though.

Another way of putting it is that GM has some very smart engineers, and some questionable managers.

I've always believed that once they took the gloves off the engineers and really let em dream - GM would be back on top. There's a glimmer of hope - we'll see what happens in the next few years.

[FoMoCo Fan]

Ford isn't buying enough of the hybrid transaxles to subsidize Toyota's hybrid program. Not even if you count the Aisin 6 speed autos they're buying. Toyota is treating the hybrid program as a marketing expense.

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by GMCSonoma

Aisin got it's start from a US company, as I'm told...Borg-Warner.

Aisin is in a joint venture with Borg-Warner (Aisin AW) that started in 1969, but Aisin had been making sewing machines and automotive parts since 1945. Another interesting fact is that when the company was founded in 1943, it was an aircraft engine manufacturer.

Anyway, I'm confident that Delphi will pull through, especially knowing that when 2007 rolls around, they'll have contracts for hybrids from Ford, GM, and probably DCX too.