Toyota to add solar panels to next-gen Prius

[johnstarnes]

Most human progress is made in incremental steps, not quantum leaps....using solar energy to meet at least part of a car's energy needs is a sensible new step to take. If these solar cells can really run the AC I will be impressed...just think of the load that an AC puts on an ICE engine today...which hurts both power and mileage

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by logansowner

And the Volt is ridiculously expensive too. Sometimes it isn't about saving money. Even with this option it will certainly come in way cheaper than the Volt anyway. If GM thought of this you'd be praising it as the second coming of Jesus. But it's a Toyota so it's useless.

See, you have no proportionality and I would estimate not a whole lot of experience with solar on a building or similar.

Vehicle installations are a whole different kettle of fish than stationary applications - especially a 'small' car.

Take your own version of ridiculously expensive you assign to the Volt.

Multiply by between 50 to 500 - that's the number for a panel on a car assuming the most favorable conditions.

Eventually, not now, this maybe a great idea.

Of course by then we'll have hydrogen somewhere somehow - or its replacement.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by jry

Big friggin' deal.
My 96 Flair motorhome has solar panels. It takes a pretty big panel to contribute to the operation of a vehicle. The panels on this motorhome are on top of the roof and are large. They don't do much to aid in recharging the house batteries. Truly a symbolic move, to be sure. They'll work real well while the car is parked in a garage.

It'll be a boon for contractors. They'll be installing skylights in garages all over the US.

[lkimura]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Exactly. GM is too far behind, they don't have the intelligence, the marketing or the money to keep up with Toyota. The Prius will be cheaper and likely more efficient than the Volt, and now with these cells taking more work away from the engine/batteries, it's going to be just this much better.

If I gave a **** about saving gas, I'd seriously contemplate a Prius, and then when it's used, it's still worth something when I want to sell it. GM has about a year to smarten up, or I won't be buying anything from them besides a Silverado or hopefully a Vette some day.

On a good day they can make a vehicle that's as good as a Honda or Toyota (Malibu) but I can't remember the last car GM made that was ya know... better.

I beg to differ. The Volt is a game changer. It will be a lot cheaper to run than the Prius. It will take around 13 or 14KWH of electricity to fully charge its batteries. That's good enough for 40 miles. Around here the power company charges around 20 cents a KWH - that works out to only $2.80 cents to fully charge the battery. I don't think there's any way the Prius can come close to going 40 miles on $2.80 in gas.

You might argue that the grid isn't big enough to support millions of electric cars and you would be right. But consider this, I have a 3.4 KW solar array on my house. It cost me around $25K, but it qualified for $10 K of rebates from the state. The manufacture guarantees the performance of this array for 25 years - so amortising the cost of the array works out to only $600 bucks a year. That means I can drive a Volt 40 miles a day for 365 days and it costs me less than $600 bucks. Keep in mind the fact that the Volt consumes only about half the output of this array. The other half can still be used for other household things. If you want to compare that to a Prius, this works out to 14,600 miles a year. If the Prius gets 45MPG it would have consumed over 324 gallons of gas which would have cost over 1300 bucks!

I don't know about you, but no matter how I crank the numbers, the Volt comes out way ahead.

[kenman923]

Solar panels? That's a new one. Sounds like Toyota is taking another risk that will pay dividends for them. Toyota is already years ahead of GM in hybrid technology.

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

See, you have no proportionality and I would estimate not a whole lot of experience with solar on a building or similar.

Vehicle installations are a whole different kettle of fish than stationary applications - especially a 'small' car.

Take your own version of ridiculously expensive you assign to the Volt.

Multiply by between 50 to 500 - that's the number for a panel on a car assuming the most favorable conditions.

Eventually, not now, this maybe a great idea.

Of course by then we'll have hydrogen somewhere somehow - or its replacement.

I realize this, and if I could pick either vehicle on someone else s dime, I'd take the Volt, but I think that at $40,000 the Volt is pretty pricey.

But if their numbers are true, at 2-5KW that is much greater than a typical solar panel of the size you could fit on a car. I'd expect to see 70MPG out of this car. The Volt is rated at 100 or so, but if you subtract that 40 miles (say a 300 miles vacation trip) I'd like to know the real MPG the Volt would get. Neither car is designed for long trips, but if you DO, then i suspect the Volt will be less efficient than the new Prius.

I'd say stick the same cells on the Volt, but then god knows what it would cost then. I realize there are tax breaks to lower the Volt cost, but keep in mind those same breaks lower the Prius cost too.


If both cars cost the same, I'd go for the Volt for sure, but with the expected price gap, I'm not sure if if makes financial sense.

[baloo]

Originally Posted by logansowner

If they were only the WalMart Special chargers that cost $100 each and only provide 20 watts, then yes, I'd call BS on it, but if it can run the AC by itself, then it is definitely worth doing.

It can't even supply 10% of what the AC draws. As Ikimura wrote above, a panel the size of a Prius roof will put out about 150 Watt, the AC draws 2000-5000 Watts.

It's simply not a good investment, because it would make way more sense to take that solar panel and put it on your house. That way it's exposed to sunlight all the time (not just when your car happens to be out of the garage and sitting in the sun), you don't have to lug around any extra weight and it will last longer because the roof of your house doesn't shake and vibrate.

[big swede]

I would like to know how much of a charge could a roof sized solar panel put back into the Volt's battery pack in an 8 hour work day. If you park outside on a sunny day I would love to know how many miles worth of a charge the sun would be putting back into your battery pack making those miles even cheaper.

Maybe that concept Nomad from a few years ago would make for a better body design to take advantage of a larger solar panel.

[baloo]

Originally Posted by big swede

I would like to know how much of a charge could a roof sized solar panel put back into the Volt's battery pack in an 8 hour work day. If you park outside on a sunny day I would love to know how many miles worth of a charge the sun would be putting back into your battery pack making those miles even cheaper.

Maybe that concept Nomad from a few years ago would make for a better body design to take advantage of a larger solar panel.

It'd generate about 10 cents worth of electricity in 8 hours. Over the course of a year it would save you $30 or so. Even if the added weight of the panel didn't cause any extra energy consumption, it would still take 20-30 years to break even.

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by baloo

It can't even supply 10% of what the AC draws. As Ikimura wrote above, a panel the size of a Prius roof will put out about 150 Watt, the AC draws 2000-5000 Watts.

It's simply not a good investment, because it would make way more sense to take that solar panel and put it on your house. That way it's exposed to sunlight all the time (not just when your car happens to be out of the garage and sitting in the sun), you don't have to lug around any extra weight and it will last longer because the roof of your house doesn't shake and vibrate.

Someone wanna comment on the fact that they said the panels will provide 2-5 KW? That's what the article said, I'm assuming they found something more efficient. Nobody has mentioned that.

There is a company now selling a new type of solar panel that provides power at $1/watt. So a 10000 watt house could have it's whole needs met by a $10,000 system. Everyone is acting as if there are no improvements.

That would be like the people who said a hybrid couldn't work in 1995 because the batteries weren't capable...nobody thought about the fact that improvements tend to be made.

[CadiEldo67]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

I too remember something about that....what an elegantly simple effective solution to getting into an oven on a summer day...so of COURSE GM did not impliment it...best to leave it to a competitor to offer.

I could be wrong, but I think that BMW has a similar system. The climate control keeps the cabin at a reasonable level, and the seats stay up to 20% cooler than full leather, in addition to the climate control.

[baloo]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Someone wanna comment on the fact that they said the panels will provide 2-5 KW? That's what the article said, I'm assuming they found something more efficient. Nobody has mentioned that.

You read that wrong. They're saying 2-5 kW is what the AC draws and that the solar panel will provide part of that. They don't say how big that part is. Even with the latest tech 2 kW would require ~200 sqft panels.

edit: My bad, it seems that Fox were the ones who got it wrong (or MarketWatch for that matter). Still, 2-5 kW is the AC, not the solar panel.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by cincygoblue

"Power part of the AC system"? Seriously, a trickle charge like this would do what? Save 0.05 gallons of gas an hour, when parked in the sun? Wouldn't the environmental impact of designing, manufacturing and installing these panels FAR outweigh ANY savings? Seems like eventually Toyota should take a hit for more "environmental publicity stunts" than "environmental savings ideas".

All the Toyota hybrids have electric AC that runs off the main traction battery. None run off the ICE. Currently when the vehicle is sitting at a dead stop with no motive force at all the EAC draws down the traction battery. When it gets to a low level such as 30% then the ICE kicks in to juice up the battery again.

The solar trickle charge would power up the traction battery somewhat thereby delaying the input from the ICE thus making the fuel last longer. How much longer? I'm sure the designers have an idea but even if it's 2% it could be one of several 2%'s that add up to 10-15% overall.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by lkimura

I beg to differ. The Volt is a game changer. It will be a lot cheaper to run than the Prius. It will take around 13 or 14KWH of electricity to fully charge its batteries. That's good enough for 40 miles. Around here the power company charges around 20 cents a KWH - that works out to only $2.80 cents to fully charge the battery. I don't think there's any way the Prius can come close to going 40 miles on $2.80 in gas.

Now there's an interesting concept. Thank you.
$2.80 worth of electricity to go 40 gas-free miles
Most Prius owners have a lifetime average of about 48 mpg for round numbers ( 47+ actually ).

If gas were to revert to $2 / gal ( very doubtful in our lifetimes )
Volt = $2.80 for 40 miles
Prius = $1.67 for 40 miles ( $2 x 40 / 48 )

If gas were to drop to $3 / gal ( possibly on occasion )
Volt = $2.80 for 40 miles
Prius = $2.50 for 40 miles

If gas stayed at $4 forever ( also very doubtful )
Volt = $2.80 for 40 miles
Prius = $3.33 for 40 miles

If gas drifted upward to $5 a gal ( pretty likely )
Volt = $2.80 for 40 miles
Prius = $4.17 for 40 miles


However after 40 miles the costs become relatively equal. GM is hoping for $5+ prices for fuel to make the Volt significantly less than the Prius? Hmmmm interesting concept.

You might argue that the grid isn't big enough to support millions of electric cars and you would be right. But consider this, I have a 3.4 KW solar array on my house. It cost me around $25K, but it qualified for $10 K of rebates from the state. The manufacture guarantees the performance of this array for 25 years - so amortising the cost of the array works out to only $600 bucks a year. That means I can drive a Volt 40 miles a day for 365 days and it costs me less than $600 bucks. Keep in mind the fact that the Volt consumes only about half the output of this array. The other half can still be used for other household things. If you want to compare that to a Prius, this works out to 14,600 miles a year. If the Prius gets 45MPG it would have consumed over 324 gallons of gas which would have cost over 1300 bucks!

I don't know about you, but no matter how I crank the numbers, the Volt comes out way ahead.

Actually the DOE estimated that the grid could charge several millions of vehicles at night. Your solar array investment is a great addition to our national energy sourcing. Good move.

[osiris]

If technological progress was unmitigated by the international elite, we would all be driving cars right now that are powered by a certain very large energy generator- The earth! Energy is everywhere and can be harnessed from any and all forms of matter.

Considering that all three of the Detroit automakers are controlled by senior-level Knights of Malta, the same group who happens to run certain agencies such as the CIA, it's guaranteed that foreign automakers will not release any significant breakthroughs even if they possess the technology. Most people understand the immense profits that are made from our hundred-year-old energy and transportation methods but are not aware of the untold story.

The big three have destroyed a great many truly competing domestic automakers - from Studebaker to Delorean - and have long since entrenched themselves into the international finance community. A foreign automaker that truly rocks the boat will be due for a regime change VERY quickly for challenging the omnipresent power of our true masters.