Redesigned Civic Hybrid to get "significantly higher fuel economy and performance"

[GeMiNi THRaSHeR]

Some hybrid tid bits...

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/...e_20050127.htm

HONDA HYBRID HIGHLIGHTS: Honda Motor Co. Chief Executive Takeo Fukui said a second-generation Civic Hybrid coming next fall has "significantly higher fuel economy and performance" than the current model but did not elaborate.



The Civic Hybrid has combined EPA city-highway mileage of 47 m.p.g., and the Toyota Prius is rated at 55. The Civic will be redesigned for the 2006 model year, and the new model may bow at the Chicago Auto Show in February.


Fukui also said Honda is considering a hybrid SUV for the United States but the company hasn't made a decision. Honda's U.S. sales unit is asking for one to counter the hybrid Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX models coming this spring.



HURRY UP AND WAIT: Lexus has more than 11,000 orders for the RX400h gas-electric hybrid, due in April. Toyota in Japan can build about 2,000 per month, so waiting lists are likely for several months, like with the Toyota Prius.



Lexus says the 400h will be able to reach 60 m.p.h. in 7.3 seconds and average 28 m.p.g. in combined EPA city-highway driving estimates.



But don't get the idea that Lexus ignores those who want horsepower.



The LF-A concept, a silver two-seater unveiled at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, hints at Lexus' plans to go exotic.



Lexus general manager Denny Clements said a car like the LF-A would have about 500 horsepower, a top speed near 200 m.p.h. and a price of more than $100,000.

[Swahili]

There's something to be said for a mainstream high volume seller like the Civic to attain 47mpg in hybrid form. Two questions though. Declaring that it will also have increased performance, is that relative to other hybrids in a similar market or is that compared to a regular gas powered Civic? And, will it actually achieve those numbers or will it be more like that Prius and Insight that don't actually reach their so called ratings?

[StevenJ]

It won't. If you want good millage and performance, buy a diesel. Hybrids are a joke. You'll spend more money on replacing thoose darn batteries after the warranty goes bad then you every would spend on gas in your entire vehicle's life time.

[Infiniti Z350]

Originally Posted by StevenJ

It won't. If you want good millage and performance, buy a diesel. Hybrids are a joke. You'll spend more money on replacing thoose darn batteries after the warranty goes bad then you every would spend on gas in your entire vehicle's life time.

Not if gas prices keep going up. And as fossil fuel reserves run low (and they will, it's just a matter of when) you can bet they'll be going up. Personally, I could take or leave hybrids but don't write them off as being asinine. I believe someone posted in another thread about the actual cost of replacing a hybrid battery and I don't think it was that much.

[GeMiNi THRaSHeR]

Originally Posted by Swahili

There's something to be said for a mainstream high volume seller like the Civic to attain 47mpg in hybrid form. Two questions though. Declaring that it will also have increased performance, is that relative to other hybrids in a similar market or is that compared to a regular gas powered Civic? And, will it actually achieve those numbers or will it be more like that Prius and Insight that don't actually reach their so called ratings?

I believe that he meant relative to the current Civic hybrid. He was very vague so its hard to draw any conclusions other than that.

The regular ICE in the next gen Civic will be based off the i - VTEC thats in the 7th gen Accord. It will have a diesel like 12:1 compression ratio and may even have the 65:1 A/F ratio.

Also, the Insight is CERTAINLY capable to meet and go far beyond its EPA #'s. The Prius is too but not as much so as the Insight. The reason you hear so much about consumers being unhappy with their real world results in terms of gas milage from their hybrids is because they don't yet know how to drive a hybrid the way its suppose to. There is a difference between driving a hybrid and a conventional vehicle (which consumers also fall behind on their EPA ratings as well, it just doesn't get any exposure). Things like momentum and braking mean the world in a hybrid. There are people getting 90+ LIFETIME (not one lucky trip, the entire life of the car)MPG in their Honda Insights, when was the last time you saw somebody get 33+% better gas milage from their non-hybrid vehicle? There are also people in Prius' that are getting better gas milage than the EPA estimates. Not as high as the Insight, but definately higher. After hybrids saturate the market and drivers become accustom to gas savings techniques, the market will be much happier with hybrids.

Originally Posted by StevenJ

It won't. If you want good millage and performance, buy a diesel. Hybrids are a joke. You'll spend more money on replacing thoose darn batteries after the warranty goes bad then you every would spend on gas in your entire vehicle's life time.

Its not even close. With hybrids technology in its infancy, its alreaddy surpassing results seen from century old diesel technological advancement. The only way in which a diesel is better than even a mild hybrid is the price. But then again once the new generation of hybrid technology hits, it will make that price difference obsolete.

[Swahili]

Wow, I really had no idea that the hybrid Prius and Insight were actually that good. I guess it's true too, that if you're so worried about gas mileage and buy a hybrid, you're probably not too concerned with performance, as long as it's adequate.

I agree about hybrid technology and even batteries being somewhat limited as a result of it being infant technology. Every few steps forward is going to relate in even further advancements. When they get the tech and know how down pat, there will be an even larger shift towards hybrids. I would honestly consider getting one, but it will have to prove to me that the reliability at least matches regular powered cars. By the time I get around to purchasing my own brand new vehicle, I would assume they'll have most of the bugs worked out, and batteries that are capable of longer periods of use than they are now.

[GM_Fanatic]

Originally Posted by Infiniti Z350

Not if gas prices keep going up. And as fossil fuel reserves run low (and they will, it's just a matter of when) you can bet they'll be going up. Personally, I could take or leave hybrids but don't write them off as being asinine. I believe someone posted in another thread about the actual cost of replacing a hybrid battery and I don't think it was that much.

I was talking to a Chevy associate at the autoshow and he said that 4 battery's in the silverado hybrid are regular 30 dollars batteries. Still thats $120 and how often do they have to be replaced?

[Mikkoo]

At the current price premium that's charged for a hybrid,
it was said recently that it will take between 8-10 yrs
of ownership to pay-off the price premium over the
std model. My question is this, at this stage of development,
are hybrid's really worth the premium price they command
over the std model? And how many people hold onto
their vehicle for almost a decade? Perhaps the next gen
will show a clearer advantage for hybrid's vs gasoline
versions.

[suckstobeyou]

hybrids are on the way for sure, but with all this talk about hondas and toyotas they are forgetting about the tdi jetta which gets 38mpg in the CITY and 46mpg on the freeway. And the MSRP on it is way less than any of the asian cars.

[04bonnie]

Originally Posted by Mikkoo

At the current price premium that's charged for a hybrid,
it was said recently that it will take between 8-10 yrs
of ownership to pay-off the price premium over the
std model. My question is this, at this stage of development,
are hybrid's really worth the premium price they command
over the std model? And how many people hold onto
their vehicle for almost a decade? Perhaps the next gen
will show a clearer advantage for hybrid's vs gasoline
versions.

Yep, well said. I think the only people really wanting to own these vehicles (hybrids) are either those who don't see that the cost is really not a savings to them, or those who don't care about the money issue, but feel they are "doing" something good for the environment. They want a "pat on the back" for caring for the environment. I don't think there is any possibility of running out of natural resources for fuel. If we would only tap into places in the USA for oil, we would solve this issue. I don't know why we depend so much on foreign oil. But, that's a whole other subject...sorry to get off topic.

Anyway, this post was a little boring, where are the photos of the new Civic...if anyone really cares.

[StevenJ]

Originally Posted by Infiniti Z350

Not if gas prices keep going up. And as fossil fuel reserves run low (and they will, it's just a matter of when) you can bet they'll be going up. Personally, I could take or leave hybrids but don't write them off as being asinine. I believe someone posted in another thread about the actual cost of replacing a hybrid battery and I don't think it was that much.

We won't run out of oil. With the advancement of synthetic oils, we are bound to have gasoline for quite a long time. Plus there are more and more wells being discovered each days as drilling technology keeps getting better and better. Especiall north of the border in Canada.

[dindak]

GM needs a hybrid Cobalt ASAP. I am no fan of hybrids but GM needs one to be competitive.

[StevenJ]

Originally Posted by 04bonnie

Yep, well said. I think the only people really wanting to own these vehicles (hybrids) are either those who don't see that the cost is really not a savings to them, or those who don't care about the money issue, but feel they are "doing" something good for the environment. They want a "pat on the back" for caring for the environment. I don't think there is any possibility of running out of natural resources for fuel. If we would only tap into places in the USA for oil, we would solve this issue. I don't know why we depend so much on foreign oil. But, that's a whole other subject...sorry to get off topic.

Anyway, this post was a little boring, where are the photos of the new Civic...if anyone really cares.

The sad part is that they are doing more harm to the enviornement that any normal gasoline engine ever would. People forget, batteries corrode and considering how big thoose batters are to power thoose hybrids, that's a hell of a lot of corrosion. So when thoose batteries have to be thrown out once their life has been used up, the corrosion alone would do more damage to the enviorment than any gasoline engine would in its entire life time.

[jro4566]

Originally Posted by StevenJ

It won't. If you want good millage and performance, buy a diesel. Hybrids are a joke. You'll spend more money on replacing thoose darn batteries after the warranty goes bad then you every would spend on gas in your entire vehicle's life time.

Aren't those batteries guaranteed for 10 years? And by the way the market is shifting, hybrids are becoming more and more common. In 10 years, costs of fixing hybrids will probably fall because of the increasing commonality of these vehicles.

We always talk about how hybrids are pointless, yet we continue wishing that GM introduced their own...

[Darc Requiem]

Originally Posted by dindak

GM needs a hybrid Cobalt ASAP. I am no fan of hybrids but GM needs one to be competitive.

I agree they also need a diesel Cobalt. They should give the Cobalt the diesel engine from the Opel Astra. With a diesel and hybrid version of the Cobalt, GM would have all its bases covered.