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#1 (permalink) |
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5.3 Liter Vortec V8
Join Date: Dec 2004
Drives: V6 3.2 L
Posts: 1,252
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In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
Rivals leery - but if market develops, the technology will be a cash cow By Mark Rechtin Automotive News / March 21, 2005 LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Motor Corp. is going all-in on hybrids and its gamble is part of one of the industry's highest-stakes poker games. While other automakers are hedging their bets - fearing that stiff development costs and higher sticker prices of hybrids will limit the technology to a niche - Toyota stands to benefit handsomely if its rivals are wrong. Toyota is the only automaker developing production hybrid powertrains for front- and rear-drive vehicles, for both cars and trucks, and for four-, six- and eight-cylinder engines. "Eventually all of our vehicles" will be offered with a hybrid option, says Jim Press, COO of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. Hybrids use an internal combustion engine and an electric motor to power the wheels. Toyota believes a large pool of consumers will want hybrids to boost fuel efficiency or performance. Hybrids also provide a technological halo for all Toyota vehicles. And Toyota's heavy spending is creating patents - 650 and counting - that could provide an edge over competitors. As one indication of that, Ford Motor Co. licenses some of Toyota's technology for the Escape hybrid. Toyota sees even more advantages if fuel cell vehicles are a major commercial success. Fuel cell vehicles will use a lot of hybrid technology, potentially creating decades of income from licensing deals. K.G. Duleep, managing director of transportation for Energy and Environmental Analysis Inc., in Arlington, Va., sees "a lot of carryover between hybrids and fuel cells in the electronics and motors. Toyota could have a real competitive advantage in developing fuel cells. It's one of the few companies that has the money to do everything." Even if fuel cells fail to become a significant alternative to the internal combustion engine, Toyota will be well positioned in a proven alternative to save fuel: hybrids. But other automakers are wary. They are unsure how many people will pay a premium for hybrid technology, estimated by analyst Duleep at $3,500 per vehicle (see box above). Some even have knocked Toyota by calling the Prius hybrid a massive PR campaign to deflect attention from Toyota's big pickups and SUVs. Honda Motor Co. and Ford are selling hybrids in the United States but are proceeding more deliberately than Toyota. Nissan Motor Co. is licensing the Toyota technology and plans an Altima hybrid in 2006. General Motors is planning full-sized hybrid-powertrain pickups and SUVs in 2007 at the earliest. Many European automakers are concentrating on diesel technology instead. Toyota doesn't have a stranglehold on hybrid technology. Breakthroughs are possible with any emerging research effort. Ford and Honda are learning from their early work, and GM's December deal with DaimlerChrysler will accelerate those companies' hybrid development. And Hyundai is working at its gleaming new South Korean r&d studio. And while Toyota does not have all of its products on the road, the hybrid plan has the full weight of the company behind it. President Fujio Cho calls it "the core technology of the future." Eric Noble, president of The Car Lab consulting firm in Orange, Calif., sees Toyota as the "800-pound gorilla of hybrid technology." He believes Toyota will have a lock on licensing its intellectual property. Licensing the technology from Toyota is "smarter than parallel competing development, especially when no one can keep up in spending with Toyota," Noble adds. "It's nothing to be ashamed of." Honda, which builds the Insight, above, is proceeding more slowly with hybrid technology than Toyota. Toyota's 650 hybrid patents cover the "power flow" of the hybrid system, encompassing the system's control logic, as well as primary power source, secondary energy storage system and the motor-generator system. Toyota spent about $800 million developing the Prius, estimates analyst Duleep. "But a lot of Toyota's basic r&d in Prius is being applied to other vehicles, too," Duleep says. The Prius' price tag is roughly the same as developing a drivetrain from scratch - with significantly more fiscal upside if hybrids take off. Toyota officials say their hybrids are breaking even, even at this early stage of development. And Toyota has about $30 billion in cash, so money is not an issue. Future fuel cells Toyota's push into hybrids is about much more than market share. Toyota desires the intellectual property rights for the heart of the fuel cell propulsion system of the future, says Dave Hermance, executive engineer for environmental engineering for Toyota Technical Center U.S.A. "To the extent that the future is fuel cell, it's a hybrid fuel cell," Hermance says. "All the work we do today lets us be the low-cost provider to three-fourths of the fuel cell system." Fuel cells may eliminate gasoline-powered engines, but the hybrid's electric motors still will propel the car, and the electronics will convert the direct-current power of the fuel cell and battery over to alternating current, Hermance says. If Toyota plays its cards right, other automakers will have to pay licensing fees to Toyota for every fuel cell car they build. "Toyota is building their own power controllers and motors, and they have a joint-venture with Panasonic to build batteries," says analyst Duleep. "Everyone else is depending on large Tier 1 suppliers like Siemens or Hitachi for their components." Honda steps back While Toyota is moving ahead full bore, marketers at Honda are pausing to examine the depth of the market. This change comes even though Honda was the first automaker to have three hybrid vehicles for U.S. sale. "We want to get a better sense for the depth of the (hybrid) market and the preference of the marketplace, then move forward in any number of directions," says Dan Bonawitz, American Honda vice president of corporate planning and logistics. Honda still plans to launch the 2006 Civic with new-generation hybrid technology. But Honda is looking into other technologies, including natural gas. Bonawitz declined to say when Honda or Acura would add another nameplate with a hybrid powertrain. He also downplayed the idea of Honda building larger hybrid vehicles, along the lines of the Lexus RX 400h and Toyota Highlander. "As you move up into bigger vehicles such as SUVs and minivans, there is more frontal area and weight, and you start getting a certain diminishing return" in terms of fuel economy, Bonawitz says. Ford, like Toyota, advertises the green halo of its hybrid, the Escape Hybrid. Ford Division expects to sell about 20,000 Escape Hybrids in 2005. It will start selling hybrid versions of the Mercury Mariner in the fall and the Mazda Tribute in 2007. The Mariner and Tribute are sister vehicles of the Escape. Ford's second-generation hybrid technology will debut in the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan sedans in 2008. GM's full hybrid system for the Chevrolet Silverado won't arrive until at least 2007. A 2005 Silverado is shown. Ford says it developed the Escape Hybrid powertrain, but the methods used to switch from electric to gasoline power and to operate the regenerative brakes were similar to Toyota's. So, Ford says, it licensed some of the processes that Toyota patented as a legal precaution. Nissan is covering its bases by licensing Toyota technology and offering it in the Altima in 2006. At the Detroit auto show in January, GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz belittled Toyota's thrust into hybrids as little more than "an advertising expense. "We business-cased it, took a hard, analytical look and thought the engineering and investment were irresponsible vis-a-vis our shareholders," he said. GM's attitude irks Roland Hwang, vehicles policy director for the Natural Resources Defense Council. "GM is particularly troubling to us. It has been the ringleader in opposing new (environmental) standards. Hybrids are not about PR. It's a serious market," Hwang says. "GM has shown a lot of bling-bling concepts, but we're still waiting for the vehicles." GM's first full hybrid system, on full-sized SUVs and pickups, won't arrive until 2007 at the earliest. "People say we're a little late to the market," says Larry Nitz, executive director of GM's hybrid program. "This is a marathon, not a sprint." Article Source: http://www.autonews.com/ Last edited by Ming : 03-26-2005 at 07:48 PM. |
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#2 (permalink) |
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5.3 Liter Vortec V8
Join Date: Dec 2004
Drives: V6 3.2 L
Posts: 1,252
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
This is another area where future oil prices have the potential to make a huge difference. I hope GM recent announcement that it will shift its resources to trucks and SUVs won't hurt GM-DCX hybrid program.
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#3 (permalink) |
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3.6 Liter V6
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,210
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
I say good for Toyota. I believe this is the long term future over big block V-8s.
I figure I will be looking at a hybrid vehicle some time in my life. Right now, it looks like Toyota and Honda have my attention. With gas prices projected to go higher and higher every year, I'm not sure I want a high powered V-8 like I have now. Its either going to be the emotional impact (Ford Mustang Shelby GT500) or the more responsible, economic method (hybrid Accord coupe (?)) that will decide my future. That's my personal decision. On the basis of a business strategy, I think Toyota will clean house. I love that Toyota can use the hybrids as a way to "hide" its bigger, V-8 powered trucks and SUVs. What a brilliant concept! Too bad Detroit is too dumb to figure it out. They could have taken the high road with good PR, instead they went back to the same mindless hp war of the 50s, 60s, and 70s. I have a feeling Toyota's hybrid systems will eventually find a way overcoming that as well. And I find it funny that everybody is complaining that it isn't a viable business decision or that people aren't willing to pay more. Companies that think that are going to be left behind because Toyota is not going to just sit on gas hybrids or the world of hybrid technology. It will find other uses (diesel hybrids for example), or eventually fuel cells. As for the high cost, I have a feeling Toyota will find a way to lower those costs as the years drag on. This company has been masterful about everything else. |
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#4 (permalink) | |
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3.6 Liter V6
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,053
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
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#7 (permalink) |
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5.3 Liter Vortec V8
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bel-Air, MD
Drives: 2001 Cavalier Z24
Posts: 1,368
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
GMs new truck and SUV line should and hopefully will offer DoD on nearly every engine. And start having hybrid options after a year of production. Gas will not be getting cheaper to any large degree for the foreseeable future, but if a person can drop 40-50k for a GMC whatever I dont think they are too pressed about gas prices.
GM does need some hybrid program, and they have one in the works. But right now GM needs to get some money makers off the ground, and the truck/SUV market is were the real money is, even still they are the bread and butter for GM. Revamping their lines, then offering hybrids across the board will not only help GMs image, but increase sales.
__________________
GM autos: the best investments I've ever made ------------------------------------------------------- 1986 chevy cavalier wagon-206,442 miles 1989 oldsmobile cutlass-216,220 miles 2000 chevy cavalier-52,367 miles --totalled ![]() 2001 chevy cavalierZ24-80,654 (Something finally happened! Needed a new battery) So lets see. Toyota lied about recalls. Lied about their HP ratings... I wonder how much truth is in their milage ratings.. |
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#8 (permalink) | ||
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7.0 Liter LS7 V8
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,936
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
Quote:
So, how was the $2 billion spent on Fiat reflective of shareholder value? Please. Toyota beat GM [again], and rather than admitting it, GM simply dismisses their success with schoolyard jabs. Grow up, Bob! Quote:
God, GM just cannot get its act together. Throw this starving GM fan a friggen bone, would yah. |
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#9 (permalink) | |
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2.0 Liter Supercharged ECOTEC
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 165
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
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#10 (permalink) |
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3.8 Liter V6
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Memphis, TN
Drives: 2002 Saturn SL2, next year I hope to buy a late mo
Posts: 320
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
I think if GM was (and needs to anyway) get on the Hybrid bandwagon they shoud make Saturn the focus line up. It just kind of fits I think....
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#12 (permalink) | |
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5.3 Liter Vortec V8
Join Date: Dec 2004
Drives: V6 3.2 L
Posts: 1,252
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
Quote:
Remember, GM and the Japanese were in the same race for the electric vehcile. I don't know if it was a strategic tactic from Toyota, but GM came up with the EV1, and the Japanese pushed it further to make hybrids. Maybe because they understood that range limitation will be a killer. Now both are again in the fuel cell race, is it another diversion from Toyota to drain GM's resources while they are preparing their next generation something? |
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#13 (permalink) |
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3.8 Liter Supercharged V6
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 626
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
Maybe they could offer diesel in more vehicles on the short term? Just a though. Pickups and small econoboxes would benefit most
__________________
FWD is for sissies. |
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#14 (permalink) | |
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5.3 Liter Vortec V8
Join Date: Dec 2004
Drives: V6 3.2 L
Posts: 1,252
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
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#15 (permalink) |
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3.8 Liter Supercharged V6
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 747
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Re: In hybrids, it's Toyota vs. the world
Toyota betting on hybrids? Looks like it's already a sure thing. The fact that it's gonna be offered on all their cars/trucks/SUVs is the best part. No one wants to buy a hybrid and drive something that looks like the Prius.
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