Euro Competion: Alfa Romeo to return to RWD

[nadepalma]

RWD Alfa Romeos Coming

This is being reported by a variety of sources, but basically, Alfa will return to an almost all-RWD lineup in the coming years to better compete with the "1st Tier" luxury/sport-automakers.

They have the Germans in mind and hope to use the switch to better compete against the Germans and other luxury powerhouses.

It will also probably mark the end of the GM co-developed "Premium Platform" that was supposed to be shared with Saab and currently underpins products like the 159, Brera, GT and upcoming "Kamal" SUV/Crossover.

A few thoughts from me on this:

1). This may up the ante against some of what GM has coming down the line.

We all know that Alfa Romeo is coming back to the US. In it's current FWD-heavy form (the only exception being the Alfa 8C Competizione) it would likely compete against more "2nd Tier" luxury makers like Acura, Volvo, and Saab.

We also know that right-or-wrong, Alfa has a "mystique" about it that the Japanese, Germans, Sweedes and others can't touch. Alfas have always been sexy, iconic status symbols, associated with movie stars and celebrities, and just "a little different" from the average luxury/sportrs car.

As such, could Alfa coming back in it's current form possibly hurt Saab in its revival? Consider they have many of the same attributes: Saab and Alfa are both "a little different" and are FWD based products known for handling and gutsy engines.

Also, if Alfa goes mostly-RWD in just about all segments, it is possible that might become an unknown factor against Cadillac here in the US or around the world as Caddy starts to reinvent itself in some markets?

Chances are that it probably won't happen (either scenario) -- or at the very least, not have as drastic an impact.

But if I were calling the shots at GM --- and a rejuvinated brand with all the cachet, mystique and character of Alfa Romeo was moving to RWD and invading the US market --- I'd keep an eye on them at the very least.

2). Could FoMoCo's decision to sell Jaguar and Land Rover be a factor in an Alfa-RWD push? Could the sale help Alfa reach more customers in the American market?

Fiat S.p.A.'s "industrial partner" -- Indian conglomerate Tata -- is involved in the bidding for Jag/LR. In fact, recent posts here on GMI state that Tata is at the forefront.

But Fiat may be pulling the strings behind Tata or at least prodding them along in this endeavor.

Fiat won't take a direct stake in any Jag/Land Rover pairing --- mostly b/c it will kill their impressive rebound and dilute their credit rating.

However, Fiat does have agreements with Tata and has said they'd be willing to help if Tata wins out over other bidders.

In addition, Tata has taken on large acquisitions before -- mostly in the steel and bus industries -- so they shouldn't be underestimated by folks in the auto-industry.

As such, there is a chance LR/Jag will end up in Indian hands.

But what does Fiat get out of it?

Fiat gets a partner to develop platforms and technolgies with and create economies of scale to benefit Jaguar as well as Alfa and Maserati. Perhaps we could see a Jaguar that shares parts and components with the next 169 and underpin a future XF? Or maybe we can see a future 159 share underpinnings with a revived/RWD replacement for the X-Type? We could even possibly see a Maserati Quattroporte share the aluminum sub-structure of the XJ.

Or perhaps we'll finally see a Maserati "SUV" based off Land Rover mechanicals?

All of this would create more "exclusivity" for Ferrari as any Jag/Maserati/Land Rover/Alfa cooperation would further seperate the former from the latter group.

Who knows, point is, there IS a possibility --- and could this be trouble for GM, Ford or spell trouble for other luxury makers down the line?

Fiat also gets greater access to the American/Canadian markets. The dealer networks are established. Fiat needs locations to relaunch Alfa Romeo, but also to expand Maserati --- and perhaps one day relaunch Fiat or Lancia (rumors are that the 500 Abarth might make it Stateside one day).

So Tata may be the point-company on this --- but there is no doubt Fiat has a hand in this as well --- and Alfa could be the first volley.

3). If point number 2 doesn't happen, would the RWD platform be built in conjuction/assistance/know-how by a German automaker?

The articles say that Alfa would be using bits from Maserati to create the 166 successor -- the 169. This vehicle will be roughly the size of a 5-Series. Considering how large the Quattroporte is, perhaps this is doable.

However, moving forward, the rest of the lineup will go RWD (probably the 159 next, followed by the 147 replacement -- the 149). The only exception would be the Alfa "Junion/Alfa Sud/Alfetta"-inspired model due to costs, etc.

If the switch happens across such a broad range --- and no other Fiat models currently are set up to share such platforms and create economies of scale --- could we see a tie-up/cooperation with another company?

Consider reports/rumors that Fiat was talking to Mercedes Benz about an "alliance" or cooperation for the future A- and B-Class models.

If such a cooperation were to come to fruition, could it be possible that either the next-gen A- and B-Class would go RWD and share components with Alfa Romeo? Or is it possible that Fiat would supply Mercedez with some FWD-hardware to spread out costs of their products while Fiat would gain access to RWD-technology to make Alfa's new RWD affordable?

Interesting to consider.

But at the very least, any kind of inked agreement would certainly have an impact on the rest of the car industry and the luxury segment after a somewhat-volatile period (DCX breaks up, Jag/Land Rover about to be sold, Maybach is in trouble, etc.)

Just some thoughts from me.....



Articles below:

Originally Posted by CarToday.com

SOURCE: CARToday


Monday, 29 October 2007

Rear-wheel drive for future Alfas

Alfa Romeo is finally dispensing with a solely front-wheel driven line up, with next year’s launch of the stunning 8C Competizione ushering in a range of rear-wheel drive models.

Italian carmakers are going through something of a renaissance at present. What, with Fiat suddenly turning the tide and producing some very desirable models, such as the Bravo and 500. Alfa Romeo has also whet our appetites with news of an exciting future line up and now there is news that the company will soon introduce rear-wheel drive models into its stable as of next year.

According to Alfa Romeo’s marketing director, Renzo Barbirato, next year’s launch of the rear-wheel drive 8C Competizione sports coupe will herald the beginning of a range of rear-wheel drive models from the Italian marque. Many will welcome this decision, seeing it as the Italian marque’s move towards taking on its Greman rivals in a number of segments.

Alfa’s new executive saloon, the 169, will debut at the end of 209 with a rear-wheel drive set up. Several other models will also make the switch from front- to rear wheel-drive shortly thereafter. The only model that will sidestep the rear-wheel drive bandwagon will be the entry-level Junior. Barbirato has cited cost concerns for the basis of this decision.

Alfa will also consider offering high-performance all-wheel drive models in the future, the first of which could be the 159 GTA sedan. This spiritual successor to the 156 GTA has been tipped to receive a V8 powerplant in a bid to compete with other eight-cylinder super saloons such as the BMW M3, Audi RS4 and Mercedes C63 AMG.

According to a number of reports, this new engine will be built in Maranello as part of a collaborative effort between Alfa Romeo, Maserati and Ferrari. The 156 GTA, featured a 184 kW 3,2-liter V6 motor produced by GM's Australian subsidiary, Holden. Some sources suggest that a V8 powerplant may be a stretch for the upcoming GTA, and claim that a turbocharged version of the 3,2-litre V6 is a more likely proposition.

MORE HERE

Originally Posted by CarHail.com

SOURCE: AutoBlog


Upcoming Alfas going rear-drive

For years, the only Italian automobiles available in the United States have been exotic sportscars. Alfa Romeo is banking on that perception for its return to the American market with a range of cars that don't cost exotic, but look exotic. That much is further evidenced by the 8C Competizione, the car Alfa made and chose to spearhead the return. But exotic, in people's minds, means rear-wheel-drive, and with the very notable but limited example of the 8C, and despite the availability of AWD on the US-bound 159/Brera/Spider range, Alfa Romeos are all front-drive. That may have cut it overseas, but American buyers are going to want tire-smoking, tail-out dramatics to go with their Italian good looks. Fortunately, Alfa is out to meet that demand with its future models.

Although the Junior hatchback, to be based on the Grande Punto platform, will be front-drive (the norm in hot hatches, anyway), the flagship 169 luxury sedan is tipped to share its platform with Maserati, which means rear-drive. Reports are now surfacing that suggest that additional future Alfa Romeo models will also be RWD, to the benefit of impassioned customers worldwide.

[Stéphane Dumas]

also we could add another possibility if...

4) Ford keep a 10% or 20% stake of Jaguar and Land Rover and if Tata is the winner to be finish line before Cerberus and the group One Equity leaded by former Ford president Jacques Nasser http://www.autosavant.net/2007/10/fo...and.html#links what Fiat would do?

Currently, Ford have a joint-venture with Fiat for the next-gen Ford Ka who'll use the Fiat 500 platform. Also Fiat is on a joint-venture with PSA for the minivans Fiat Ulysse/Citroen C8/Lancia Phedra/Peugeot 807 and Ford works with PSA for turbo-diesel engines, maybe we could imagine an alliance Ford-Fiat-PSA (it's only a pipe-dream but it could have more sense then Ghosn and Kerkorian ideas of a Renault-Nissan-GM) or a more realistic scenario, more joint-venture projects betweem them.

For the 3rd possibility since Mercedes still got 20% of Chrysler stake, I could imagine Chrysler founding a way to step on the game for some joint-venture projects with Fiat (or even stepping on a alliance with Fiat before Ghosn decide to step on it) like a small-car project, example: the Dodge Hornet could use the Fiat Panda platform. And Ironically Iaccoca dreamed of a trans-atlantic company of an alliance between Chrysler and Fiat (when Chrysler still owned Lamborghigni), could be possible then Lee's dream could be back on the table if this opportunity arrive?

[skylark68]

Great article. I guess this answers my question from the Land Rover/Jaguar thread.

[Frankster177]

The 159 is a seriously good looking auto.

Great news about RWD, now they can get back to their glory years.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Stéphane Dumas

also we could add another possibility if...

4) Ford keep a 10% or 20% stake of Jaguar and Land Rover and if Tata is the winner to be finish line before Cerberus and the group One Equity leaded by former Ford president Jacques Nasser http://www.autosavant.net/2007/10/fo...and.html#links what Fiat would do?

Currently, Ford have a joint-venture with Fiat for the next-gen Ford Ka who'll use the Fiat 500 platform. Also Fiat is on a joint-venture with PSA for the minivans Fiat Ulysse/Citroen C8/Lancia Phedra/Peugeot 807 and Ford works with PSA for turbo-diesel engines, maybe we could imagine an alliance Ford-Fiat-PSA (it's only a pipe-dream but it could have more sense then Ghosn and Kerkorian ideas of a Renault-Nissan-GM) or a more realistic scenario, more joint-venture projects betweem them.

For the 3rd possibility since Mercedes still got 20% of Chrysler stake, I could imagine Chrysler founding a way to step on the game for some joint-venture projects with Fiat (or even stepping on a alliance with Fiat before Ghosn decide to step on it) like a small-car project, example: the Dodge Hornet could use the Fiat Panda platform. And Ironically Iaccoca dreamed of a trans-atlantic company of an alliance between Chrysler and Fiat (when Chrysler still owned Lamborghigni), could be possible then Lee's dream could be back on the table if this opportunity arrive?

The only thing that might make me think that "Point 4" won't happen is that Mulally himself has said he has no interest in keeping a stake in either company after the sale. He wants to cut equity ties. They will probably sell engines to the new entity, but you can sell engines and technologies without being exposed to their performance in the market.

It would seem that retaining a stake in Aston Martin Lagonda may have been a one-time thing --- and a small company like AML will have a much much smaller impact on FoMoCo's bottomline than larger entities like LR/Jag.

As for the "trans-atlantic/ItaloAmerican automaker" that Iacocca dreamed up --- that would have been something. I don't know if it's possible now, but it certainly is a thought.

If for any other reason than Fiat is still controlled by the Agnelli family and Ford is still controlled by the Ford family, this would be intersting tie up.

Originally Posted by skylark68

Great article. I guess this answers my question from the Land Rover/Jaguar thread.

Thanks Skylark. Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Frankster177

The 159 is a seriously good looking auto.

Great news about RWD, now they can get back to their glory years.

I think the 159 is a great looking car too...just imagine how great it would be in RWD form.

P.S. In your signature -- "34, 38, 82, 06" -- the years "La Squadra Azzurra" happend to win the World Cup and were proclaimed "Campione del Mondo"; I'm assuming thats it's significance, no?

[BumbleBee]

On your three points:

1) I think under the guidance of Sergio Marchione, CEO of Fiat, that Alfa will be competing against the likes of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Cadillac. Although they will be low volume at first, that is squarely their aim both in North America and throughout the world. I single out those brands, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Cadillac as all have an emphasis on driving dynamics that Volvo, Saab, and Lexus just can't match.

On a personal note, in 2010 when I buy my next car I will have a very tough time deciding between the CTS and Alfa 159 as I LOVE both cars.

2) It has been stated by Fiat CEO Sergio Marchione a number of times that Fiat will not provide any financial backing to the purchase of Land Rover and Jaguar but will provide technical information and knowledge sharing between the two organizations, Fiat and Tata. In exchange, Tata will open up the distribution network of Land Rover and Jaguar to Alfa Romeo and possibly the new Fiat 500. I think the alliance between Tata and Fiat is quite strong and both organizations will work together. Sergio Marchione is very big on sharing costs on vehicle platforms and is a big part of Fiat's turnaround. Even if Ford retains a 20% stake in Jag and Land Rover, the relationship between Tata and Fiat will not be impacted.

3) As you mentioned, if the Jaguar and Land Rover deal with Tata falls through, Fiat will turn to Mercedes for the RWD platform. Mercedes is very interested in the A and B platforms currently developed by Fiat as well as there small diesel engines. In exchange, Mercedes would provide the E series platform to Fiat for the Alfa Romeo brand which can be used for both the 159 and 169.

I love GM products but I love Fiat products just a little more considering my dad has a 1974 Alfa Romeo Berlina in mint condition and a 1978 Alfa Romeo Spider in mint condition. However, it will be many years away before Alfa has any meaningful sales in North America as it builds up the name of its competitors. I think it is more important for GM to focus on the guys ahead of them rather than those behind them.

None the less, I am hoping for a successful return for Alfa Romeo here in North America.

[Frankster177]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

Thanks Skylark. Much appreciated.

I think the 159 is a great looking car too...just imagine how great it would be in RWD form.

P.S. In your signature -- "34, 38, 82, 06" -- the years "La Squadra Azzurra" happend to win the World Cup and were proclaimed "Campione del Mondo"; I'm assuming thats it's significance, no?

Thats right mate, Italian Aussie here.
parents are from northern Italy

What are they going to do with Lancia?
Either fix it or kill it.
The thesis was a polarising car, I didnt mind it myself.

[t-rex]

Everybody wants GM to turn Pontiac into sort of an "American BMW". I want them to make it an "American Alfa"! Hopefully Fiat can return Alfa (and Lancia too) to its pre-1960s roots, when it was a top-shelf luxury brand, up there with Mercedes and Jaguar. Alfas were extremely advanced cars, all having DOHC engines, 4-wheel disc braking, and deDion suspensions in the 1950s, a time when Detroit thought tailfins and power ashtray openers were the pinnacle of automotive advancement.

But I'm Alfisti from way back... They were very popular cars in my childhood home of South Africa. I've been waiting patiently for years for Fiat to start making real Alfas again; that is, RWD, 50/50 mass distribution, powerful brakes, and sharp handling that makes a BMW pale by comparision. I hope Alfa's return to the US is successful. If the product's right, maybe this time around will be a hit!

[Frankster177]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Everybody wants GM to turn Pontiac into sort of an "American BMW". I want them to make it an "American Alfa"! Hopefully Fiat can return Alfa (and Lancia too) to its pre-1960s roots, when it was a top-shelf luxury brand, up there with Mercedes and Jaguar. Alfas were extremely advanced cars, all having DOHC engines, 4-wheel disc braking, and deDion suspensions in the 1950s, a time when Detroit thought tailfins and power ashtray openers were the pinnacle of automotive advancement.

But I'm Alfisti from way back... They were very popular cars in my childhood home of South Africa. I've been waiting patiently for years for Fiat to start making real Alfas again; that is, RWD, 50/50 mass distribution, powerful brakes, and sharp handling that makes a BMW pale by comparision. I hope Alfa's return to the US is successful. If the product's right, maybe this time around will be a hit!

i want a South African Fairmont GT or Perana.
seriously cool.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Frankster177

Thats right mate, Italian Aussie here.
parents are from northern Italy

What are they going to do with Lancia?
Either fix it or kill it.
The thesis was a polarising car, I didnt mind it myself.

Nice. My folks are from souther Italy -- outside of Avellino and outside Foggia.

I'm a big fan of Lancia -- in a way, even more so than with Alfa Romeo. There is a whole thread I have someplace based on Lancia -- you should run a search to see if any of it is still relevant.

Long story short: Lancia has a future at Fiat Auto. Sergio Marchionne is a big supporter since he feels it is under utilized (and rightfully so --- Lancia up to now has been the Italian version of Mercury). New products are coming. A new Delta based on the new Bravo is around the corner. This will be the cornerstone of a recovery to compliment the current Ypsilon and revamped Musa.

Also a convertible/coupe based on the Fiat/Bertone Suagna concept is suposed to find a place at Lancia. Lancia was chosen rather than the Fiat brand b/c its an up-level brand and a profit would be insured with it's higher-transaction price. It would use the Fulvia concept as inspiration and looks and probably keep the Fulvia (or Fulvietta) name.

There were rumors that Fiat would allow Lancia to share the "Premium Platform" for a new Thesis replacement. The rumors also suggested that Thema or Aurelia name would be revived for that vehicle.

Whatever they do, they need to keep the names consistent. Italian car makers are just as horrible as American car companies in disposing of names. They should keep names around (unless it's associated with at "damaged" product) to build brand equity.

I've also read that in the interim, since Fiat spent SO much money on the Thesis platform, there may be a short-term facelift to keep attention on the vehicle for the short term. Honestly, this was due FOREVER ago. The "new" Lancia look is much nicer and cohesive than six years ago and a revamped Thesis might look very attractive to some buyers in that segment (I LOVE THE INTERIOR).

Lastly, Lancia was also supposed to get a version of the Fiat Sedici crossover/4x4 that was to be called "Pangea". That's according to sites like ItaliaSpeed.com and others. There has been no news of this recently, but certainly a possibility.

Anyway, that's the short of it for now...gotta run.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by Frankster177

i want a South African Fairmont GT or Perana.
seriously cool.

I always thought the SA Fairmont was the same as the Aussie Falcon GT, just with Fairmont trim. Peranas rocked though! When I was a kid, there was a red Perana Granada 5.8 at the bottom of our street. The guy went to work fairly early in the morning and that throaty exhaust woke me up early for school on many mornings! Part of what made Peranas so cool was their "stealth" factor, looking little different from the cooking Fords of the day, like our family's plain Granada XL, which replaced our beloved Zephyr 3.0 when Mom got t-boned by a taxi coming out of the Howard Centre in Pinelands!

I remember being SO angry as a kid when we didn't get the Aussie Chargers in SA. Huge demand in Oz meant Adelaide couldn't send us any Charger CKD packs, so we got stuck with the stupid-looking US Dodge Demon body until "our" Charger was dropped in '76. No hemi-sixes either; we got the hi-po "slant six" in our Valiants.

[Frankster177]

Original Falcon GT's are worth a bucket load now.
Phase 3's are going for nearly a million.

All the Aussie classics are going up.

Companies are importing south african cars, for something different and cos they r cheaper.

[soloyosh]

I spoke with Jeff Bleustein, former CEO of Harley-Davidson, back in 2003. He said the biggest threat he was worried about at the time was Indian. Why? Even though they were small, they had the same name cache in the market that H-D did and the possibility of explosive growth similar to H-D.

Alfa's worth keeping an eye on.

[Carguy]

Alfa Romeo and RWD fit together PERFECTLY!! The MORE RWD the BETTER!!

[PocoToro]

All they need to do is a proper rear wheel drive spider and I'll be