Chrysler To Sell Diesel Engines In US; VW Moves 4,000 Diesels In October; GM??

[calgaryhhr]

Originally Posted by chakis24

ok, so we'll make up a scenario. gas vw and diesel vw:

starting price is 2500 more.
gas: 23/30 combined: 27
diesel: 30/42 combined: 36

we'll use combined and say 50% highway/city.
here regular gas is 2.67 and diesel is 2.99.

10,000 miles per year.

gas: 371 gallons
diesel: 278

yearly cost:
gas: $991
diesel: $831

thats a $160 difference in yearly fuel consumption. this does not include the extra maintenance necessary in a diesel. even assuming the maintenance costs are the same, it would take 15.6 years to make your money back.

Diesel vehicles certainly are not going to be the best solution for everyone. Under the situation you have posted it is not very economically feasible.

My situation is a different. Diesel in my area, currently, is approximately $0.05 cheaper per litre ($0.20 per gallon roughly.) That would equate to about $300 savings per year and just over 8 years to pay off the diesel engine premium. In my area diesel has been upwards of $0.15 per litre ($0.60 per gallon cheaper.)

So really, diesel might be a viable solution for some people and it might not be for others.

[PAULSTS1]

VW sells 4000 diesels in October! I remember getting into a back and forth dialog with another member during the summer, when I mentioned that GM should be in light Diesel; he disputed it!

Chrysler is doing the right thing, now in Europe diesel is a viable fuel and it should boost fuel mileage averages enough to balance out some of the HEMI V8’s. I really like that FIAT 500, in pictures around this forum. With a diesel, it would be major competitor to the Cruze, and the hot selling Fiesta!

The auto business is beginning to look exciting again, and I am glad, soon we will be able to get back to positive discussions, and vehicle comparisons.

[vanshmack]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

Pretty hard considering the US's convoluded new diesel emissions requirements. But VW is doing it, so why can't GM?

I think too many Americans are still afraid of diesels, but those that are are becoming fewer and fewer. I grew up not knowing why everyone hated diesel cars, but I knew everyone did. (born in '82, so I missed the whole failed diesel revolution).

I think by now most have forgotten are at least willing to give it another shot 30 or so years later in the spirit of better MPG. But first and foremost the US needs to get on track with the rest of the world for their diesel emissions. Diesel cars are King in Europe and they can't even get arrested in North America.

Google "Oldsmobile 350 Diesel" and you'll understand why this hatred is so deep-seated.

I was pretty young when these cars were new (born in 1970), but I do remember an uncle who owned a Delta 88 Diesel and all he did was complain.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by calgaryhhr

Diesel vehicles certainly are not going to be the best solution for everyone. Under the situation you have posted it is not very economically feasible.

My situation is a different. Diesel in my area, currently, is approximately $0.05 cheaper per litre ($0.20 per gallon roughly.) That would equate to about $300 savings per year and just over 8 years to pay off the diesel engine premium. In my area diesel has been upwards of $0.15 per litre ($0.60 per gallon cheaper.)

So really, diesel might be a viable solution for some people and it might not be for others.

Did you calculate the higher fuel economy in that equation?

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by vanshmack

Google "Oldsmobile 350 Diesel" and you'll understand why this hatred is so deep-seated.

I was pretty young when these cars were new (born in 1970), but I do remember an uncle who owned a Delta 88 Diesel and all he did was complain.

Eventually I learned about it. I know of the Diesel 350 now, but for a long time I didn't.

[BrickTamland]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

There's a very down to earth reason why GM, Ford, Toyota and most recently Honda have all come down against diesels in light vehicles. While the vehicles certainly are more fuel efficient and in some cases more fun to drive the continuing problem is the combination of a higher initial price of $2500 to $4000 and higher fuel prices.

While diesel right now is the same or slightly higher than gasoline if the fuel price graph starts going up again diesel fuel is going to end up higher than gasoline by $.50-$1.00 again just as it was in Spring of 08.

This combo is nearly impossible to overcome. The solution Europe uses is to tax gas higher than diesel. Here that's a non-flyer IMO.

Why does diesel usually cost more than gas?

I wonder how much more people would take to diesels if its tax were reduced. I read that on average, the combo of state and federal taxes is 50.8 cents. The average gas tax is 45.6 cents, again combining state and federal taxes. I would venture diesel is taxed more because truckers and industry do not have choices. It's diesel or stay home. People in their gasoline powered cars sway their habits when prices increase.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by chakis24

i dont know if diesel is really the answer. everyone forgets that when gas was 4 bucks a gallon, diesel was in the 5's (and its still higher than gas now).

not to mention if everyone starts using deisel, including the truckers that go millions of miles every year, who knows what the price ceiling will be. you dont save money buying deisel. theyre great for power and higher fuel economy, but not saving money.

Agreed, but then again it depends on the application. If for example the Equinox got a Diesel it might make sense if the Diesel gets 10+ MPG over the gas V6 model but with the same amount of power. I am on the fence with Diesels, I really like the fuel economy and power but I am still conflicted on the price of Diesel and the premium you need to pay on the powertrain.

For a long time I was eying the 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesels. Around here they had a few loaded ones going for about $25k, pre-owned with only a few miles on them. For AWD applications Diesels make more sense IMO since you make up some of the difference. All I know is Diesels at Chrysler will have me looking at their products more.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by chakis24

i dont know if diesel is really the answer. everyone forgets that when gas was 4 bucks a gallon, diesel was in the 5's (and its still higher than gas now).

not to mention if everyone starts using deisel, including the truckers that go millions of miles every year, who knows what the price ceiling will be. you dont save money buying deisel. theyre great for power and higher fuel economy, but not saving money.

This^^^

Every gallon used for personal usage takes a gallon out of the supply for truckers and rails and barges to use. When things were very dicey in Summer 08 I think you'll remember that the truckers were organizing to move on DC and shut the country down....no deliveries.

We as a continent have ZERO capability to do commerce by electricity such as they do in Europe. Every pound of every product we use requires fossil fuel, primarily diesel, to get it from the production/importation point to our hands.

When someone buys diesel for personal use when supplies are tight....that person pisses off a very important and influential segment of the business community.

[Hunid Racks]

Originally Posted by vanshmack

Google "Oldsmobile 350 Diesel" and you'll understand why this hatred is so deep-seated.

I was pretty young when these cars were new (born in 1970), but I do remember an uncle who owned a Delta 88 Diesel and all he did was complain.

The crazy thing is the 4.3 diesel that went into a few front wheel drive cars was a very strong engine. Too bad the image was already there.

[44 mpg by 2010]

Originally Posted by brnwrng

that is not true...first car I looked up.

2010 VW Golf Edmunds
2.5L FWD 2.5L I5 Manual 25 mpg $17,490
TDI FWD 2.0L I4 T Manual 34 mpg $21,990
4500 difference...pretty close to the 5000 I originally posted. You are right they are not as high as the truck difference but there is still a significant change. 4500 buys a lot of gas in a lifetime and the 9mpg difference may never pay the difference.

http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/golf/2010/index.html

The sedan is not comparable because it only comes in and automatic transmission for GAS and Manual for DIESEL.

Try comparing diesel versus gasoline vehicle prices in the UK. The small displacement diesel premiums seem to range from about $800 to around $2,500 on average.

Keep in mind that
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...AndPrices.aspx
price values include at least a 10% excise tax on engines between 1.5 and 2.0 liter (higher above and lower below based on engine size).

Plus a 15% Value Add Tax (soon to be 17.5%). These VAT taxes apply to imports as well.

Don't forget to convert GBP to USD by multiplying AutoCar values by 1.65.

Hope this helps.
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/

And if you are interested in trucks and vans, maybe this will help (Iveco is part of Fiat).
http://www.vca.gov.uk/vandata/vehicles.aspx

Things are going to start changing rapidly.

[chakis24]

Originally Posted by calgaryhhr

Diesel vehicles certainly are not going to be the best solution for everyone. Under the situation you have posted it is not very economically feasible.

My situation is a different. Diesel in my area, currently, is approximately $0.05 cheaper per litre ($0.20 per gallon roughly.) That would equate to about $300 savings per year and just over 8 years to pay off the diesel engine premium. In my area diesel has been upwards of $0.15 per litre ($0.60 per gallon cheaper.)

So really, diesel might be a viable solution for some people and it might not be for others.

although what you say is true, imo the people who benefit from diesel are far outweighed by the people who wouldnt or would just never buy diesel. vw can do it because they sell alot in europe as it is- americans are just icing on the cake. i dont think gm has a sufficient amount of foreign diesel sales to justify the price of bringing car diesel engines to the states (i am speculating, i dont know exact sale numbers).

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

How come diesel used to be so much cheaper here? Did the tax structure change?

Originally Posted by BrickTamland

Why does diesel usually cost more than gas?

I wonder how much more people would take to diesels if its tax were reduced. I read that on average, the combo of state and federal taxes is 50.8 cents. The average gas tax is 45.6 cents, again combining state and federal taxes. I would venture diesel is taxed more because truckers and industry do not have choices. It's diesel or stay home. People in their gasoline powered cars sway their habits when prices increase.

There are four reasons I believe..

• We used to burn 'dirty diesel' in our vehicles up until 3-4 yrs ago. Now all diesel must be ULSD. Most euro-diesels now require ULSD. To make the fuel cleaner costs a significant penny. Increased cost of production.
• Because we use more gasoline here we trade gasoline for diesel. Europe with its tax bias in favor of diesel needs our diesel and we need their excess gasoline. Reduction of supplies.
• When business gets going good our commerce demands diesel for every product we buy from bananas to boxes to beach balls. We have HUGE distances to move our products.
• Paying what the market will bear. This has to do with the marketing of petro products by the oil producers / refiners. Which of these two situations has less negative implications:
• .....going to the pump and paying $1 to $1.50 more for diesel fuel
• .....going to the supermarket and paying a few pennies more for every single product you buy.

They get you either way it's just that one is more palatable for the general public.

[jry]

I hope that this is not a repeat comment. Isn't this why GM took a stake in Fiat?
Then lost two bil getting out?

[jdlover7]

1.2L turbo diesel w/ 6 spd tranny=fiesta killer

[PistonsFan]

Originally Posted by kylepo

Car diesels are not stupid expensive like truck ones....actually if I recall the MB diesels are the same or cheaper than the gas alternative.....

Not true. It's pretty simple to understand if you are familiar with the components.

Variable Geometry Turbocharger=$$$
2000 bar (~30,000 psi) common rail fuel injection=$$$
Nox-storage catylst=$$$
Urea SCR=$$$
Diesel particulate filter=$$$$$
Sensors/Controls everywhere=$$$
EGR valving/cooling/bypass = $$$

Diesel engines are very expensive.

However, if they push legislation through to regulate exhaust particulate NUMBER as well as mass, gasoline engines will need to use a particulate filter as well. That is likely to happen in a few years. That would reduce the price gap between gas engines and diesel engines a little bit.

Originally Posted by Uzzy

If they were not so rare and didn't have to do so much to have it pass emission regulations, it would be a LOT cheaper. Still cheaper than a Hybrid option and it has comparable gas mileage.

Not entirely correct. Depends on the application. In some cases, a hybrid is cheaper than a diesel with current cost accounting (assumed warranty costs included).

Originally Posted by V8GMT360 Guy

One thing is for sure, a lot of half ton truck owners (myself included) would still love to see a diesel offering like the 4.5L duramax they canned a while back....

It wasn't "canned", it was "shelved". They engine is designed. It's just a matter of re-inserting into a production program, finishing the vehicle calibration, and factory tooling. (generally speaking)

And yes, it would be a great engine. Hopefully they can build a business case for it based on upcoming CAFÉ legislation.

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

VW sells 4000 diesels in October! I remember getting into a back and forth dialog with another member during the summer, when I mentioned that GM should be in light Diesel; he disputed it!

4,000 units is tiny.

Originally Posted by BrickTamland

Why does diesel usually cost more than gas?

The refinery cost for ultra-low sulfur diesel is only a few cents per gallon more than gasoline.

Any price swings (in the US) beyond that is due to supply and demand.