'09 911: up to 30% more power, 13% better mileage

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by ctaylorzl1

Just to be more precise, a Carrera 911 2 (2WD/3.6 6cyl/AT)weighs in at 3200 lbs, and a Vue (2WD/3.6 6cyl/AT) weighs 3800 lbs. Approx 600 lbs difference (give or take a few), not the 1300 you made it out to be. But even still, all the difference is in the details. 80k Sports car vs. 25k SUV. But That being said, the Vue gets dismal fuel mileage for what it is, and seems even worse when compaired to a engine of same size which is what Ron was trying to do for compairisons sake!

Shame on you, ctaylorzl1 - you're disputing other's numbers while providing the wrong numbers yourself. The !!4 CYL!!! VUE weighs 3825 (according to saturn's website). While the VUE redline (best fuel economy 6 cyl VUE at 16/24) weighs 4076 - so you're back up to 800 lbs or so. The 6 cylinder VUE does get dismal fuel economy, but if that really bothers you - there's a very nice green line version that's already better than anything else out there (25/32). Also, you should bad mouth it all you can now, because once the two mode comes out, GAME OVER.

Also - if Ron (and Autobloggreen) really wanted a comparison to a similar engine of a similar size, why didn't they choose the CTS? or the Aura? Because those aren't big heavy SUV's that's why... (BTW, the CTS gets 18/26 with an automatic, while the Aura gets 17/26 - also with an automatic, and I'll bet they still outweigh the Carrera 2, which only carries "2+2" people)

[kain01]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

A 2008 Porsche Carrera 2 Coupe gets 18/24 (auto.) and has 325 hp.
A 2008 Saturn Vue FWD gets (at best) 16/24 (auto) and has 257 hp.

If that were not bad enough, Porsche is adding direct injection and a dual clutch transmission for 2009. The result?



That would be 390 hp and 20/27 mpg. (The Corvette gets 16/16.) Imagine if Porsche decided to keep the power the same. Mileage would have been even higher.

source

Wow, I thought comparing Impala's to Camry's was stupid. Anyway, 325*.20 is still 390 by the pc's calculator (child of the 80's when calculator's were forcefed instead of math), but more impressive is the Carerra S's jump up to 461 hp (again 355*.30). Decent jump in mileage too, but not out of this world if the 13% is right. Would only be 20/29 for the base model, and 19/28 for the S. These are numbers are pretty good, but all manufacturers really need to at least put in a mild hybrid system in cars to boost city numbers (where people drive the most).

On a side note maybe a better comparison to the 325 hp 911 getting 18/26 (from porsche's website)
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...s/?gtabindex=7
would be the Toyota Solara, it's a V6 and at least a coupe. Their 3.3 6 makes 210 hp and gets 18/27 mileage. Hm, 115 more hp, and 365 less lbs. Ok scratch the Toyota comparison, the vue makes it look like the guzzler it is dangit!!

[HoosierRon]

OK everyone, just calm down. The Vue comparison (made by the original article, I didn't think it up) has nothing to do with the point I was making. The point is that with DI and a dual clutch transmission, you can get 20-30% more power and 13% better mileage.

My point is this: How about GM start using dual clutch transmissions and increase its use of DI. Oil hit $139 yesterday.

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by kain01

Wow, I thought comparing Impala's to Camry's was stupid. Anyway, 325*.20 is still 390 by the pc's calculator (child of the 80's when calculator's were forcefed instead of math), but more impressive is the Carerra S's jump up to 461 hp (again 355*.30). Decent jump in mileage too, but not out of this world if the 13% is right. Would only be 20/29 for the base model, and 19/28 for the S. These are numbers are pretty good, but all manufacturers really need to at least put in a mild hybrid system in cars to boost city numbers (where people drive the most).

On a side note maybe a better comparison to the 325 hp 911 getting 18/26 (from porsche's website)
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...s/?gtabindex=7
would be the Toyota Solara, it's a V6 and at least a coupe. Their 3.3 6 makes 210 hp and gets 18/27 mileage. Hm, 115 more hp, and 365 less lbs. Ok scratch the Toyota comparison, the vue makes it look like the guzzler it is dangit!!

Come on people - just because Autobloggreen turned off the brain, doesn't mean you have to -

PORSCHE's press release says 20 hp and 30 hp. The idiots at autobloggreen decided that is really 20% and 30% ?!?!?!?

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

The point is that with DI and a dual clutch transmission, you can get 20-30% more power and 13% better mileage.

My point is this: How about GM start using dual clutch transmissions and increase its use of DI. Oil hit $139 yesterday.

Faulty conclusion reached by using faulty data:

By adding DI and going from a 5 speed to a 7 speed - you can gain 6% - 9% more horsepower and improve your mileage by UP TO 13% (probably only at 100kph HWY cruise). Let's wait and see what the EPA says, shall we?

The other convenient thing you're overlooking is that being a follower in the auto industry typically means that you spend more time engineering around existing patents than engineering optimized solutions. I have no issue with adding DI - GM already seems to have a roadmap for the small block that includes DI, but their advantage in this segment is that 8 cyl engines can run better as 4 cylinders than 6s can... GM should be developing the heck out of their cylinder shutoff.

[jwrebholz]

Originally Posted by ctaylorzl1

Just to be more precise, a Carrera 911 2 (2WD/3.6 6cyl/AT)weighs in at 3200 lbs, and a Vue (2WD/3.6 6cyl/AT) weighs 3800 lbs. Approx 600 lbs difference (give or take a few), not the 1300 you made it out to be. But even still, all the difference is in the details. 80k Sports car vs. 25k SUV. But That being said, the Vue gets dismal fuel mileage for what it is, and seems even worse when compaired to a engine of same size which is what Ron was trying to do for compairisons sake!

600 extra pounds and the aerodynamics (relatively speaking) of an OUTHOUSE.

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

Originally Posted by silvergoat2k6

I would imagine that the very tall 6th gear (0.50 I believe) has a lot to do with that.

My GTO turns 2000 rpm's at 80 mph in 6th and gets 25 mpg...I've never driven one, but I would think a Corvette would be turning probably around 1700 rpm and get even better mileage (as it's also more aerodynamic).

nope it's about 2 000 r/min usually at 80 1700 is a bit too sluggish

Dual-clutch transmission isn't giving an economy boost compared to a good manual. You have more moving parts and more mass. That is never a benefit.

Maybe the top gear is taller, but you can only make a gear so tall... 6 gear is plenty.

[CmicasatheGreat]

Originally Posted by syr74

DI would make a difference to be sure, but it's pretty unlikely it would be that much. First, as engines get larger the percentage improvement you see from improvements like this typically falls at least a little. The other issue is that 2-valve engines are pretty unlikely to respond as well to direct injection as are 4-valve engines, particularly where VVT is involved, with the possible exception of hybrid designs like the one Lexus employs where PFI and DI are both used. I say this because there are still some low rpm performance issues with DI and the improved port velocity a 4-valve engine will see, not to mention the more finite degree of valvetrain control offered by a DOHC engine, again particularly where VVT is involved, is likewise almost certain to do a better job here. The final issue here is that the light and aerodynamic Vette is already pretty efficient, particularly once you take the taller gearing and broad torque curve into consideration. It is, unfortunately, difficult to imporve upon the things you already do well.

Personally, I would look for something like a ~10% improvement in power and a ~5% improvement in fuel economy (city economy could potentially not improve at all) in the LS V8 with the addition of direct injection giving us something more like 17/27 with a 470-475hp rating. Still very good, but not quite a 500hp 30mpg car.

Just my two cents.

GM Reveals Small-Block V-8 with Direct Injection - wardsauto.com
By Mike Sutton
Aug. 29, 2007

MILFORD, MI – Although General Motors Corp. is dividing its resources to cover all fronts of advanced powertrain development, the future of the auto maker’s foundation OHV small-block V-8 architecture appears secure with the advent of direct-injection gasoline (DIG) technology.

Among the various exhibits of engineering bravado on display at the auto maker’s proving grounds here, including two-mode hybrid-electric drivetrains, ultra-clean turbodiesels and homogeneous charge compression ignition flex-fuel engines, a seemingly untouched Cadillac Escalade stands out.

Emblazoned with giant E85 banners down its flanks, there is little to indicate the industry’s first OHV V-8 with DIG fueling lurks beneath the SUV’s pearl white hood.

The experimental engine is based on GM’s current all-aluminum Gen IV 6.2L V-8 (L92) found in the Escalade, GMC Yukon Denali and Hummer H2. Depending on the application, the powerplant, which sports port fuel injection, variable valve timing (VVT) and dual-cam phasing, is rated between 380-403 hp in stock form.

However, with a little tweaking to accommodate the auto industry’s latest fuel-injection hardware, the prototype V-8 is producing “well north of 450 hp (on gasoline),” says Dave Sczomak, development engineer-GM Powertrain Advanced Engineering.
Running the engine on E85 ethanol allows for even more power to be coaxed from the big V-8, he adds, noting the 85%/15% ethanol/gasoline mix generally carries a race fuel-like 106 octane rating.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by CmicasatheGreat

GM Reveals Small-Block V-8 with Direct Injection - wardsauto.com
By Mike Sutton
Aug. 29, 2007

MILFORD, MI – Although General Motors Corp. is dividing its resources to cover all fronts of advanced powertrain development, the future of the auto maker’s foundation OHV small-block V-8 architecture appears secure with the advent of direct-injection gasoline (DIG) technology.

Among the various exhibits of engineering bravado on display at the auto maker’s proving grounds here, including two-mode hybrid-electric drivetrains, ultra-clean turbodiesels and homogeneous charge compression ignition flex-fuel engines, a seemingly untouched Cadillac Escalade stands out.

Emblazoned with giant E85 banners down its flanks, there is little to indicate the industry’s first OHV V-8 with DIG fueling lurks beneath the SUV’s pearl white hood.

The experimental engine is based on GM’s current all-aluminum Gen IV 6.2L V-8 (L92) found in the Escalade, GMC Yukon Denali and Hummer H2. Depending on the application, the powerplant, which sports port fuel injection, variable valve timing (VVT) and dual-cam phasing, is rated between 380-403 hp in stock form.

However, with a little tweaking to accommodate the auto industry’s latest fuel-injection hardware, the prototype V-8 is producing “well north of 450 hp (on gasoline),” says Dave Sczomak, development engineer-GM Powertrain Advanced Engineering.
Running the engine on E85 ethanol allows for even more power to be coaxed from the big V-8, he adds, noting the 85%/15% ethanol/gasoline mix generally carries a race fuel-like 106 octane rating.

Well north of 450hp is obviously between 450hp and 500hp, otherwise they would have simply called it a 500hp piece, which means the motor is about where I said it would be with direct injection. I'd be curious to see how close my fuel economy estimates are. To turn in a more precise guess I'll say city fuel economy either wont change compared to the existing 6.2L PFI V8 or might even drop a mpg, while highway fuel economy will likely pick up by one mpg. (this assumes no other major changes outside of the typical DI conversion items) This would actually work in GM's favor since combined fuel economy ratings have a bias toward hwy numbers IIRC. And of course there is the possibility that they could employ a strategy of maintaining current hp ratings and use smaller, DI engines in place of the existing, larger PFI units to improve fuel economy.

Still, a DOHC, multi-valve piece is probably going to get more benefit from direct injection than a 2-valve OHV unit could be expected to, which means that GM needs to continue refining elsewhere to make up for the difference.

[jc7222]

With all the money you'll save on the Corvette who cares

[TruckMan]

This is a misleading and pointless comparison. You can't simply compare peak HP between vehicles to make a point. Weight and aerodynamics play a major role, as well as HP & torque below 2500 rpm (where 98% of all driving occurs). Most hp ratings are at >4500 rpm (where no normal driver visits on a regular basis).

Plus, who gives a crap what type of fuel economy a Porsche or Corvette gets? If I owned one, I sure wouldn't. A moped gets more than 100 mpg with less than 50 hp. What does that prove? Nothing.

A more valid statistic would be to state what rpm a vehilce turns at 80 mph (for highway mileage), or how much torque & hp you have at 2000 rpm.

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

(The Corvette gets 16/16.)

No, the Corvette gets 16/26.

[Johnny P]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

Imagine if Porsche decided to keep the power the same. Mileage would have been even higher.

I wouldn't bet that. Typically with more power you need a higher compression ratio. Direct injection allows a higher static compression ratio for a given octane as it is. All this adds up to higher efficiency for greater fuel economy.

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by blkwrxsti

Come on people - just because Autobloggreen turned off the brain, doesn't mean you have to -

PORSCHE's press release says 20 hp and 30 hp. The idiots at autobloggreen decided that is really 20% and 30% ?!?!?!?

So somebody must have told Sam, because the Autobloggreen story has been fixed, and now just says 20 - 30 horsepower (instead of 20% - 30%). Once they fix therest of it and compare the porsche to a CTS, I'll be really impressed.


This just leaves this thread with an incorrect title...

[AMERICA 123]

HR,
You may want to correct/update the title here - even ABG has now done so.

It is 20/30 HP and not 20/30%.