Tosca Update?

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

Here is a spyshot of a possible Tosca update. No word on whether or not it will spread to Europe and Australia or not. Thought it was worth posting, see link below to source, more pics.


MORE PICS HERE

Looks like a Saturn L200 Sedan to me.

Dump it and build Malibu's in GMDAT plants.

The Malibu will sell much better in the markets the Tosca/Epica are sold and save GM a lot of $$$$$.

Only change to the Malibu's overseas would be to add the 1.9L TD, 2.9L TD and 3.2L V6 from the Captiva.

The best change GM won't do and that is add a manual transmission.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

I agree that the Lacetti needs and update -- and soon.

However, GM may be hedging their time against when an all new Lacetti/Nubira/Optra (or whatever they call the replacement) debuts.

Remember that DeltaII is supposed to be up and running in the next two years. If that's the case, then it may make little sense to management to update the Lacetti/Nubira/Optra with an all new model a few years off.

However, the General IS selling an updated version of the Lacetti/Nubira/Optra in some key markets like India and some SE Asian markets. I've posted on this before, but basically Chevy took the front end from the hatchback, retained the headlamps, gave it a new grille and slapped it on the sedan and wagon.

And IMHO it's an improvement from the current sedan/wagon and "unifies" the lineup with the hatch version as well:




Here is the thread on this as well, but you need to look toward the end for active links (the rest died): Chevy Optra in India gets a facelift

If I were calling the shots at GM, I'd put this version of the car on sale in Europe and the rest of the world where they sell the Lacetti/Nubira/Optra. And why not? The engineering is already done so its not like they have to reinvent the wheel on this. They just need to take what India and other markets already have done and apply it to Europe, etc. Besides, it incorporate the new Chevy "face" with the older design and brings some cohesion to the c-segment lineup. I like it a great deal and think they could squeeze a few more sales out of the product to keep it viable as interest wanes before and all new model emerges in a new years.

These cars look OLD.

When the new Astra is introduced, move the old tooling to India and make the Lacetti/Nubira/Optra replacements (with new Chevy Styled front ends).

Another possibility is sell the (made in the U.S.) Cobalt in Europe, time to start to take advantage of the dollar/euro exchange rate and the new UAW contract.

GM needs to get the DeltaII platform merged with the old Daewoo one.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

Looks like a Saturn L200 Sedan to me.

Dump it and build Malibu's in GMDAT plants.

The Malibu will sell much better in the markets the Tosca/Epica are sold and save GM a lot of $$$$$.

Only change to the Malibu's overseas would be to add the 1.9L TD, 2.9L TD and 3.2L V6 from the Captiva.

The best change GM won't do and that is add a manual transmission.

What you are outlining will pretty much happen as the platforms are pared down. Eventually the Tosca will be replaced by an EpsilonII product -- most likely sharing styling cues with the Malibu.

But remember, the Tosca was a short-term solution to make the most of GMDAT's resources while EpsilonII was being developed. And considering they rehashed an old product to turn out a handsome looking offering, I dont think they did all that badly.

What's more, the product actually does well for what it is in Europe. It isn't breaking any sales records or challenging the Vectra, Passat, Mondeo, et al. for sales supremacy -- but it's not doing badly either as a cut-rate D-segment product.

I couldn't agree with you more on the manual transmission comment -- bring it on and I'll trade in my Fusion for one!

Originally Posted by SierraGS

These cars look OLD.

When the new Astra is introduced, move the old tooling to India and make the Lacetti/Nubira/Optra replacements (with new Chevy Styled front ends).

Another possibility is sell the (made in the U.S.) Cobalt in Europe, time to start to take advantage of the dollar/euro exchange rate and the new UAW contract.

GM needs to get the DeltaII platform merged with the old Daewoo one.

It does look a bit dated, but not a horrid update to get them through 2010. What other choice do they have? They can't make the DeltaII product come to market any quicker.

They very well may move the tooling to India or some other low cost market and produce cut-rate sedans. They may even use them as a starting point for a "cheap, world car" that GM is talking about. Who knows.

Using the US sourced Cobalt for overseas use is a good idea, but not likely to happen before DeltaII arrives. And even then, it makes more sense to source them from South Korea, etc. than from the US.

However, your comment on merging the platforms is going to happen. Just as the Epica/Tosca's platform will give way to the expanded use of EpsilonII, the Gentra/Nubira/Optra/Lacetti platform will be supplanted by DeltaII. Which is good news from an economies of scale perspective, but also from a logistical perspective --- meaning we can built Astras in the US and Europe can build the Cobalt's replacement for Chevy-Europe to replace the Lacetti/Nubira if needed.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

What you are outlining will pretty much happen as the platforms are pared down. Eventually the Tosca will be replaced by an EpsilonII product -- most likely sharing styling cues with the Malibu.

But remember, the Tosca was a short-term solution to make the most of GMDAT's resources while EpsilonII was being developed. And considering they rehashed an old product to turn out a handsome looking offering, I dont think they did all that badly.

What's more, the product actually does well for what it is in Europe. It isn't breaking any sales records or challenging the Vectra, Passat, Mondeo, et al. for sales supremacy -- but it's not doing badly either as a cut-rate D-segment product.

I couldn't agree with you more on the manual transmission comment -- bring it on and I'll trade in my Fusion for one!

What do you think of GM introducing the U.S. made Malibu to Europe, maybe as a model above the Tosca, keeping the 2.4L and 3.6L engines for the short term and adding a 3.6L DI version (around 300 HP) later. I think it would help boost Chevrolet sales in many European countries, even if it would mean no sales in "right hand drive" countries initially (would have to wait for a year or so or until the next gen).

Of course GM would need to boost production even more than it has already - not a bad problem.

The next gen-Malibu could then be planned for European sales and FINALLY get a proper manual transmission (along with some great diesels).

[AG3]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

GM needs to get the DeltaII platform merged with the old Daewoo one.

Isn't that what they are developing now, an Optra/Lacetti/Cobalt replacment?

This is off-topic, but any updates on these upcoming compact Chevys?

[AG3]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

What do you think of GM introducing the U.S. made Malibu to Europe, maybe as a model above the Tosca, keeping the 2.4L and 3.6L engines for the short term and adding a 3.6L DI version (around 300 HP) later. I think it would help boost Chevrolet sales in many European countries,

A diesel option (like the Vectra's 184hp 3.0 V6 CDTI) would be more important to Europe than a 300hp 3.6 liter Direct Injection V6 powered Malibu, I think they should leave the high-output Direct injection V6 to the premium Cadillac CTS so it has a power advantage(marketing purposes).

I hope they decide to sell the new Malibu in Asia too, currently GM has no direct competitors with the popular Accord and Camry.
PS: GM offers the Epica and/or the old 3.6 liter Lumina(previous gen Holden Commodore V6) in some Asian markets.
I think the Malibu would be a perfect competitor for the ASEAN Camry(Aurion) and ASEAN Accord(JDM Inspire)

[Ssom]

I'd agree with anyone who said that the Malibu should be sent to GMDAT for assembly, would be much more competitive with Mondeo/Accord/Mazda6.

[Bravada]

Well...

1. To a non-American, the Epica looks very sharp and up-to-date, and certainly so compared to the pretty amenity-lacking body of the G6. I see it as at least as modern as the Malibu. Also, I hate those "gotta see in person" comments, but it really does make a very good impression in person.

2. Outside of North America, engines larger than 2.5-litre are, for the most part, extreme opulence. Most people around the world do fine with two-litres in their midsize cars, and the Tosca engines deliver power smoothly and in sufficient quantities. It will be sad to see the Porsche-engineered I6 go.

Yes Australians, I know about your large cars - but then, how many cars actually bought by individual customers come with V6s in the Oz? Ha?

3. The new Malibu, with all due respect, does not set any new standards in terms of interior quality (perhaps for GM, but not the world), and omissions such as the lack of rear armrest are rather embarassing. It is a very good weapon for cracking the NA market, but for countries where vehicles like the Mondeo are large family cars for affluent people, it is still not ready yet.

4. Epica, OTOH, is surprisingly well-built and the materials are above the Sonata/Magentis level. It almost doesn't look like a GM DAT product, comparing it with its brethren - perhaps save for Captiva/Antara.

5. Oh yes, the Lacetti is awfully old by now. The Indian rehash looks desperate to me and doesn't strike me as modern either. Of all the GM DAT models, this one needs a complete replacement the most (the others compete in classes with crap cars galore, so they can hold on for a moment), and thankfully one is on its way.

6. Nick, the Gentra is the T250 Aveo sedan, it has nothing to do with the J-cars. It will migrate to Gamma. Though, actually, rumor has it the Chevrolet compact will be on a larger Gamma rather than Delta to cut costs (Delta being reserved for Opel and Saab compacts, perhaps the Buick).

7. Nick, you're right - the Cobalt could do much better in Europe, but it has no hatchback or wagon variants. I believe it's too late now, we just have to wait for a global compact Chevy.

[unkillsam]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Well...

1. To a non-American, the Epica looks very sharp and up-to-date, and certainly so compared to the pretty amenity-lacking body of the G6. I see it as at least as modern as the Malibu. Also, I hate those "gotta see in person" comments, but it really does make a very good impression in person.

2. Outside of North America, engines larger than 2.5-litre are, for the most part, extreme opulence. Most people around the world do fine with two-litres in their midsize cars, and the Tosca engines deliver power smoothly and in sufficient quantities. It will be sad to see the Porsche-engineered I6 go.

Yes Australians, I know about your large cars - but then, how many cars actually bought by individual customers come with V6s in the Oz? Ha?

3. The new Malibu, with all due respect, does not set any new standards in terms of interior quality (perhaps for GM, but not the world), and omissions such as the lack of rear armrest are rather embarassing. It is a very good weapon for cracking the NA market, but for countries where vehicles like the Mondeo are large family cars for affluent people, it is still not ready yet.

4. Epica, OTOH, is surprisingly well-built and the materials are above the Sonata/Magentis level. It almost doesn't look like a GM DAT product, comparing it with its brethren - perhaps save for Captiva/Antara.

5. Oh yes, the Lacetti is awfully old by now. The Indian rehash looks desperate to me and doesn't strike me as modern either. Of all the GM DAT models, this one needs a complete replacement the most (the others compete in classes with crap cars galore, so they can hold on for a moment), and thankfully one is on its way.

6. Nick, the Gentra is the T250 Aveo sedan, it has nothing to do with the J-cars. It will migrate to Gamma. Though, actually, rumor has it the Chevrolet compact will be on a larger Gamma rather than Delta to cut costs (Delta being reserved for Opel and Saab compacts, perhaps the Buick).

7. Nick, you're right - the Cobalt could do much better in Europe, but it has no hatchback or wagon variants. I believe it's too late now, we just have to wait for a global compact Chevy.

Where are you hearing this. I believe that would be a mistake.

1. Were would the volume be to make Delta II viable. There is no way a Saab 9-1 and Buick Skylark would generate enough volumne to keep Lordtown assembly busy.

Even if the Volt made it by 2010, I don't think that GM will crank out 100,000 the first year. They will have to guage consumer acceptance first.

Is Lordstown going to be used for Euro exports.

I know I am rambling on about this, but even the Delta I platform is really, really good. (I drive a Cobalt SS/SC) With the proper suspension set-up these cars can handle pretty good.

The Aveo handles like crap and I don't want to see the same thing happen to the US spec Cobalt. It just has too much potential.

[unkillsam]

Also, how would Cobalt move to Gamma if GM plans on using Gamma for the Beat and the Aveo? Beat is a micro-car, Aveo is a sub-compact.

How can you put the Cobalt, which is supposed to be a true compact car, on Gamma when every generation of every new car from every car manufacturer get's bigger.

I would expect the NG Aveo and NG Cobalt to grow slightly to make room for a Beat sized car and also to use this as a reason to boost prices on these models.

[AG3]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Well...
5. Oh yes, the Lacetti is awfully old by now. The Indian rehash looks desperate to me and doesn't strike me as modern either. Of all the GM DAT models, this one needs a complete replacement the most (the others compete in classes with crap cars galore, so they can hold on for a moment), and thankfully one is on its way.

The facelifted Optra is also for the ASEAN/Asian version.
Up close, its not that bad. (I took the photo of the black Optra station wagon above)
But true its starting to look dated specially when I saw one parked next to the current Civic sedan and Focus MkII(euro style).

With spy photos of GM/GMDAT's new compact sedan floating around since late last year, I guess we'll be seeing it before the year ends.

Looks like the Tosca/Epica will be sticking around for a while... haven't seen any spy photos of its replacement.

[TKR]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

Looks like a Saturn L200 Sedan to me.

Dump it and build Malibu's in GMDAT plants.

The Malibu will sell much better in the markets the Tosca/Epica are sold and save GM a lot of $$$$$.

Only change to the Malibu's overseas would be to add the 1.9L TD, 2.9L TD and 3.2L V6 from the Captiva.

The best change GM won't do and that is add a manual transmission.

Neither Malibu nor Cobalt were designed with RHD in mind and I'm guessing (this is GM after all) that it would be prohibative to make the changes.

[Bravada]

1. Were would the volume be to make Delta II viable. There is no way a Saab 9-1 and Buick Skylark would generate enough volumne to keep Lordtown assembly busy.

Lordstown? Saab 9-1? I actually believe Delta will not be made in North America at all, it might remain Europe-only. As concerns platforms - they can be stretched a lot these days, the Passat is on the Golf platform now, or check out Fiat's Linea, which is a competent compact car on a supermini platform.

[AG3]

So whats the latest update on the Tosca and Epica?

Will it be replaced by a new car based on GM's Epsilon II platform?
...or will they just merge it with the Malibu which is roughly the same size as the new Opel Insignia?

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by AG3

So whats the latest update on the Tosca and Epica?

Will it be replaced by a new car based on GM's Epsilon II platform?
...or will they just merge it with the Malibu which is roughly the same size as the new Opel Insignia?

According to the reports we've read, Tosca/Epica will migrate to Epsilon II platform when it's life cycle ends.

However, it will be based on the "short-wheel base" version of EpII.

As of right now, that is the gameplan.