GM considers selling Chevrolets in South Korea

[Bravada]

Originally Posted by Frankster177

Fix up the Epica instead.
Get rid of the Dame Ednna front and work on the motors.

I don't see what's wrong with the front end, I would work on the rear if anything. Motors are allright with me too for what the car is - surely no worse than Hyundai's offerings.

Work on the marketing of GM's best underdog.

[Butz]

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What cars will Chevrolet sell in Korea that Daewoo doesn't sell already?

[LAMRONH]

Originally Posted by BigThreeForever

Good luck to GM with this one. Excuse me while I stop smirking.

The Koreans have one of the most - perhaps the most - restricted markets in the developed world. They use any and all methods to deter foreign penetration.

Not sure if this classic is still being used, but here goes: buyers of imported cars are (or were) singled out for a special tax audit by the local tax inspectors.

Or try this one: dealers in imported cars are (or were) allocated crappy backstreet lots well away from main dealership traffic and are limited to a certain size (i.e X square meters only).

The South Koreans are not a stupid people. Far, far from it. Their government is far more shrewd and nationalistic than the naive free-market, open-borders crowd who mismanage America and Europe and their rapidly dying industrial bases.

As a matter of interest, check out how many Japanese cars are (or aren't) sold in South Korea.

These people are very, very smart.

Maybe they meant NORTH Korear?

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

That's like saying you could replace the Levis brand with FCUK in America and overseas - most Levis are no longer made in the US, why keep the name. Because repeat customers are brand aware. I always go looking for them, because I know they are a consistent product and a design classic that aren't cheap or the most trendy but extremely good value for money. That's the value of consistent branding.

For that matter, why not replace Chevrolet in the Middle-East with an Arabian name? After all, the cars aren't made in the US for years. Saudis know full well their 'Chevvy' Lumina comes from Oz. Simple, because people don't like fundamental change, it makes them concerned about who is running their company, providing warranty and after-sales.

Believe me, it would damage GM's interests in Australia enormously if they seek to supplant Holden with Chev. For starters, I would not automatically be inclined to pick Chev to buy. There is no recent track record here, and nothing they sell that I could afford which would tempt me (RWD passenger or commercial vehicle other than a stupidly large truck).

Ford will still sell Ford Falcons, even if ther're rebadged FWD Tauruses made in the US They sold here nonstop for 48 years - Falcon means 'large Ford sedan' in Oz. Probably half the reason the Falcon outsold the Taurus by 40:1

Replace Holden even on GMDATs with Chev and you'll hurt them, by reducing total sales volume. I can just see some GM beancounter saying 'gee, Holden sales have dropped by 30% this year. Guess no one really cares about the brand.' Kill it, and hand the market away. It isn't a given that you can change the logo to a bowtie and translate the sales even with the same car. Nissan took years to win back lost Datsun sales.

Holden sold 4 times as many Barinas in the first year even though they were the same car as the Daewoo Kalos they replaced. Putting the Lion and Globe on automatically gave the car credibility. There are many reasons Toyo is winning the sales race, superior product@cost due to industrial muscle is mostly it: branding Holdens as Chev won't arrest that at all.

This means nothing to the average Aussie, and let's face it, isn't a patch on thisas far as dynanicism goes.

Chev has no presence here in Australasia than as a legacy Yank-Tank maker and would take years to counter this negative perception as anything else - why put yourself even further behind Toyota and the other competitors? The American cars sold here are sold on a big brash image like the Jeeps, 300C and soon the Cadillac. It would take a seismic shift to sell little'uns.

People aren't stupid - they'll know and be told with every roadtest these 'Chevs' are coming from Asia, not America. And wonder why they should choose one over a Toycar.

The other thing is, I'm sorry to say, American branding isn't necessarily a plus here, with Dud-ya screwing everthing up including now the US economy. It isn't US-made cars which are selling well for GM, but overseas models including Holdens. In fact US-made models are still ceding ground in their own markets. Why taint success with failure?

You are looking at it all wrong.

Holden is going to move upmarket, just as Opel/Vauxhal/Saturn are. To do this you need to stop selling Daewoo's as Holden's.

Solution, sell the Daewoo's as Chevy. Brand awareness can be built. Chevy wasn't in Europe 10 years ago (at least not in any meaningful fashion) and look at it now. The cars sell.

[BBDOS CV8]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

You are looking at it all wrong.

Holden is going to move upmarket, just as Opel/Vauxhal/Saturn are. To do this you need to stop selling Daewoo's as Holden's.

Solution, sell the Daewoo's as Chevy. Brand awareness can be built. Chevy wasn't in Europe 10 years ago (at least not in any meaningful fashion) and look at it now. The cars sell.

But hang on:

1. Holden already has significant luxury sales presence with three models over the luxury tax threshold - GM hasn't got anything superior to what Holden already has, either now or in the pipeline. Holden/HSV has 15-20% of the over $50K market now! GM in North America don't own that proportion of their own market.
2. HSV is already there with it's whole range and already selling more cars than ever. Alone they sell 6,000 cars or 6% of that market, which makes them probably a top ten player.
3. Cadillac is supposedly coming to be 'upmarket GM' - how can Holden move upstairs if they're already carrying an expensive lodger in the attic?
4. Two GMDATs already sell at supply limit (Captiva and Barina) and the Rodeo is the second/third best seller in the class all as Holdens. Rebadging as Chev won't help them one iota.

As it is, Holden is getting CTS (and coupe) and Camaro whether they want them or not. That is the reason given for no 'Coupe60' so as far as we're concerned Holden and it's fans are already hurt and what you're saying is spin. I have no doubt Holden will have to dumb down Calais to give CTS a run, or they'll be told to when CTS doesn't sell. The numeric class leade in the target demographic is Calais, along with Caprice.

I see Holden being squeezed from both ends. If you bring in a full Cadillac line including an Alpha (which means no Torana) which is supposedly the plan, a lower end made up of Chevs and a Camaro and supposedly eventually Corvette for performance then the pressure on Holden to justify it's existence will become intense. Might as well brand everything Chev.

Holden evaluated the C5 Corvette for conversion and sale as a HSV, and considered selling the Camaro as a Holden Camaro. In the end they decided they would be best sold as Chevs because in that market that's their heritage and what they are known as. Holden realised it would hurt the marketing of them to rebadge. The same is true in reverse - Holden is known as the 'Aussie car' even though it's 100% owned by GM. Chev? Chev is nowhere - it'll never be anything but a 'US brand' which will work against it and is not a sub for Holden.

If GM subbed Chev badges for Holden a lot of people, me included, would vote with their feet and avoid their cars. They'd lose most of a generation of consumers - because Holden is 60 this year and we've known them all our lives. It's like saying the New York Yankees could change their name without losing their fans. Or Chev itself. That's utter rubbish. It's an irrational reaction, but it will happen. It'll seen for what it is, just be a naked grab to 'win' market share by badge substitution; and it would bre intensely resented.

If Holden close their doors, then it won't matter. But that isn't happening anytime soon.

And I think you'd find, many Koreans would feel the same about Daewoo.

[RedVee8]

I am unlikely to buy anything other than Holden from here on in.
I'm 46 and hope to be buying cars for my wife and I for another 20 - 25 years.
Change Holden to Chevrolet and all bets are off.

[Robert Ryan]

1. HSV is already there with it's whole range and already selling more cars than ever. Alone they sell 6,000 cars or 6% of that market, which makes them probably a top ten player.
2. Cadillac is supposedly coming to be 'upmarket GM' - how can Holden move upstairs if they're already carrying an expensive lodger in the attic?

I think the success of HSV is killing the market for the so called "Premier Group". HSV has people trading in their 6 cylinder Mercedes/Audi's for their wilder V8 options. I cannot fathom the logic of having Saab, Hummer and Cadillac as a seperate so-called luxury grouping, when the first two already are struggling for sales and we have thrashed the Cadillac issue to death. HSV has already become Holden's "Premier Grouping"

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by RedVee8

I am unlikely to buy anything other than Holden from here on in.
I'm 46 and hope to be buying cars for my wife and I for another 20 - 25 years.
Change Holden to Chevrolet and all bets are off.

So then buy the Holden version. Look at the European Chevrolet and European Opel line-ups. Then take all the Opel's and make them Holdens, add the VE (and variants) line.

For example why should Holden sell both the Aveo and the Corsa? Or the Epica and the Insignia (Vectra). Because even though you don't get the Insignia and Corsa now, you will get them eventually.

I don't see how this can be a problem. Holden loses no segments yet gains better product, and GM also can take the "bargain" product and shove it under another label.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

But hang on:

1. Holden already has significant luxury sales presence with three models over the luxury tax threshold - GM hasn't got anything superior to what Holden already has, either now or in the pipeline. Holden/HSV has 15-20% of the over $50K market now! GM in North America don't own that proportion of their own market.
2. HSV is already there with it's whole range and already selling more cars than ever. Alone they sell 6,000 cars or 6% of that market, which makes them probably a top ten player.
3. Cadillac is supposedly coming to be 'upmarket GM' - how can Holden move upstairs if they're already carrying an expensive lodger in the attic?
4. Two GMDATs already sell at supply limit (Captiva and Barina) and the Rodeo is the second/third best seller in the class all as Holdens. Rebadging as Chev won't help them one iota.

As it is, Holden is getting CTS (and coupe) and Camaro whether they want them or not. That is the reason given for no 'Coupe60' so as far as we're concerned Holden and it's fans are already hurt and what you're saying is spin. I have no doubt Holden will have to dumb down Calais to give CTS a run, or they'll be told to when CTS doesn't sell. The numeric class leade in the target demographic is Calais, along with Caprice.

I see Holden being squeezed from both ends. If you bring in a full Cadillac line including an Alpha (which means no Torana) which is supposedly the plan, a lower end made up of Chevs and a Camaro and supposedly eventually Corvette for performance then the pressure on Holden to justify it's existence will become intense. Might as well brand everything Chev.

Holden evaluated the C5 Corvette for conversion and sale as a HSV, and considered selling the Camaro as a Holden Camaro. In the end they decided they would be best sold as Chevs because in that market that's their heritage and what they are known as. Holden realised it would hurt the marketing of them to rebadge. The same is true in reverse - Holden is known as the 'Aussie car' even though it's 100% owned by GM. Chev? Chev is nowhere - it'll never be anything but a 'US brand' which will work against it and is not a sub for Holden.

If GM subbed Chev badges for Holden a lot of people, me included, would vote with their feet and avoid their cars. They'd lose most of a generation of consumers - because Holden is 60 this year and we've known them all our lives. It's like saying the New York Yankees could change their name without losing their fans. Or Chev itself. That's utter rubbish. It's an irrational reaction, but it will happen. It'll seen for what it is, just be a naked grab to 'win' market share by badge substitution; and it would bre intensely resented.

If Holden close their doors, then it won't matter. But that isn't happening anytime soon.

And I think you'd find, many Koreans would feel the same about Daewoo.

All fine points, until you look at GM's strategy in Europe.

Cadillac, Saab, Chevy, and Opel co-exist in that market. Opel basically as of right now has as many cars as Holden minus the VE line (and variants).

In Australia it will be the same. Korean based Chevy's in the low end, Holdens in the mainstream (replace any Daewoo car you have with it's European Opel counterpart), Saab off on it's own, and Cadillac at the top.

The only issue in Australia that is not present in Europe is the VE versus CTS line. But I think that is because in Europe larger cars are not at the forefront. For that analysis I'd look at the NA market where Cadillac exists with Pontiac/Saturn/Buick.

The logic that states GM cannot maintain 4 brands in Australia is one I don't buy. Sorry guys they do it in the rest of the world, maybe by selling multiple versions of the same car, but eventually to amortize costs they will begin doing it in your market. Holden will become a Vauxhaull/Saturn like company selling local fare with rebadged Opel's.

[YupYupYup]

Originally Posted by RedVee8

Gee mate, agree that it is possible - disagree that it is necessary or desirable.

Anyway YupYupYup, have a heart.
How would you like it if people were discussing replacing your home grown Canadian car brand with their US equivilent?

Woops. :-)

Have a heart? Ha, ha , ha! So emotional...Just said be careful of what you say. I have heard so many people say "this or that American brand will not work here in my country because we love only our brand, ...", only to find the American brand doing extremely well in that said country 5 years later. It is not so much a nationalistic things (country vs. country) as it is a reality thing...Seen enough historical examples to know that sometimes nationalistic pride sometimes twists logical thinking. Let's just say I have lived in a few countries to experience this...

As for being Canadian...I never said I was Canadian. I love throwing curve balls to see how people react. Let's just say the no Canadian car brand joke didn't bother me one bit.

By the way, I hope Holden products do well in Australia. I am a serious. But I am sure you are not afraid of a little competition either...

[YupYupYup]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

That's like saying you could replace the Levis brand with FCUK in America and overseas - most Levis are no longer made in the US, why keep the name. Because repeat customers are brand aware. I always go looking for them, because I know they are a consistent product and a design classic that aren't cheap or the most trendy but extremely good value for money. That's the value of consistent branding.

For that matter, why not replace Chevrolet in the Middle-East with an Arabian name? After all, the cars aren't made in the US for years. Saudis know full well their 'Chevvy' Lumina comes from Oz. Simple, because people don't like fundamental change, it makes them concerned about who is running their company, providing warranty and after-sales.

Believe me, it would damage GM's interests in Australia enormously if they seek to supplant Holden with Chev. For starters, I would not automatically be inclined to pick Chev to buy. There is no recent track record here, and nothing they sell that I could afford which would tempt me (RWD passenger or commercial vehicle other than a stupidly large truck).

Ford will still sell Ford Falcons, even if ther're rebadged FWD Tauruses made in the US They sold here nonstop for 48 years - Falcon means 'large Ford sedan' in Oz. Probably half the reason the Falcon outsold the Taurus by 40:1

Replace Holden even on GMDATs with Chev and you'll hurt them, by reducing total sales volume. I can just see some GM beancounter saying 'gee, Holden sales have dropped by 30% this year. Guess no one really cares about the brand.' Kill it, and hand the market away. It isn't a given that you can change the logo to a bowtie and translate the sales even with the same car. Nissan took years to win back lost Datsun sales.

Holden sold 4 times as many Barinas in the first year even though they were the same car as the Daewoo Kalos they replaced. Putting the Lion and Globe on automatically gave the car credibility. There are many reasons Toyo is winning the sales race, superior product@cost due to industrial muscle is mostly it: branding Holdens as Chev won't arrest that at all.

This means nothing to the average Aussie, and let's face it, isn't a patch on thisas far as dynanicism goes.

Chev has no presence here in Australasia than as a legacy Yank-Tank maker and would take years to counter this negative perception as anything else - why put yourself even further behind Toyota and the other competitors? The American cars sold here are sold on a big brash image like the Jeeps, 300C and soon the Cadillac. It would take a seismic shift to sell little'uns.

People aren't stupid - they'll know and be told with every roadtest these 'Chevs' are coming from Asia, not America. And wonder why they should choose one over a Toycar.

The other thing is, I'm sorry to say, American branding isn't necessarily a plus here, with Dud-ya screwing everthing up including now the US economy. It isn't US-made cars which are selling well for GM, but overseas models including Holdens. In fact US-made models are still ceding ground in their own markets. Why taint success with failure?

WOW! The nationalism rises!!! Holy cow!!! Go, Australia, go! Proud outback lads!!! Rah-rah! Just cars!!! Whoa, slow down Napolean...

As for "U.S. economy", it doesn't matter how much it is "screwed up"...A) It runs the world's economy (meaning everyone, even Australia and Holden, is dependent on it and b) there has never been an economy as successful (or as poweful/ large) in such as short period of time in the world's history. Let's just say the slowing economy is part of a typical cycle after such a huge boom in the last six years...Read some economics books (instead of media hype) and you will see what I am talking about...It is still the world's most powerful economy and will be for quite some time...Wishful thinking by some it wasn't aside...

Damn, some people watch too much bias t.v. and get all nationalistic when discussing a Korean/ Anmerican BRAND POSSIBLY being sold in Australia to compete with HOLDEN, an Aussie brand owned by an AMERICAN company. GEESH! It is a global world, people. Get over it.

[YupYupYup]

Originally Posted by RedVee8

I am unlikely to buy anything other than Holden from here on in.
I'm 46 and hope to be buying cars for my wife and I for another 20 - 25 years.
Change Holden to Chevrolet and all bets are off.

Because of a name change? Oh, my...Didn't you already know that Holden is American-owned and controlled by. Does that bother you? Does it bother you that this board is from the U.S. and not an Aussie-only site? Wow...

Nobody said Holden will become Chevrolet. In some ways I could see two brands operating side-by-side. Chevy at the value end and Holden a little bit more upmarket. Just look at the global GM product lines and you can visualize it.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

Waste of time. Holden already sells to the same market demographic as Chev, and to establish them as a purveyor of bottom end GMDATs would kill the Camaro and any other high-value vehicles. It's seen to be damaging Holden, even if Joe average doesn't notice.

We already get the Colorado/Canyon as the Rodeo, which name is changing to the Colorado due to Isuzu owning the name, but Holden owns the Thai factory that makes them in RHD. No North American Chevs are made RHD, so forget that.

We already get four Daewoos as Holdens, and Holden owns 45% of the company so there is no need to get anything at 50% higher cost from the US.

Cadillac we'll see, but the bulk of BMW and Merc sales are small fours which are far lower priced than the Cadillac's proposed level. With one model and one engine it isn't going to even be felt by the Euros. It is competing for a luxury vehicle market of 100,000 cars, including Holden/HSV who sell 15-20K cars into that market, plus all the big SUVs and Euros. It isn't going to capture more than a few percent.

Nissan tried to set up Maxima here - bombed. Their top model is sold throug Nissan dealers as the Nissan Maxima. Honda never even tried with Acura - they're all Hondas. Toyota has Lexus, but without the Toyo dealers it would have folded. Our market is small for that segregation, plus we have lots of players here like Renault, Citroen, Alfa, Fiat, Peugeot who never left.

Buyers here are looking for good small cars. Those things aren't synonymous with Chev. And things like Tahoes and Silverados are way too big, with petrol approaching $7.00 a US gal. People are staying away from big SUVs. In that market probably more than half the veficles are diesels, as we have good fuel here and it is almost on a par with petrol.

Sorry, fixing Chevvy's problems by dumping product is not going to work. The biggest selling cars here sell around 4-5,000 a month, with daylight after them. The Thai-made Hilux (Tacoma) only sells so well because of the Australia-Thailand free trade agreement means it is priced very low. Plus it's always been a big seller here in the commercial segment.

I would agree, the Australian market is not large enough for another GM brand and GM will have hard enough time getting Cadillac right and the Corvette can be marketed as a seperate "brand" as it was in Europe for years.

Holden needs to get Opel models made in lower cost plants (isn't that what GM has been planning all along?) and Chevy models that may do well Australia like the HHR can also be offered as Holden products, what is so hard about putting a Holden grille on it and calling it a Holden HHR?

To me the Concept 60 should be the next Monaro since it has a strong following and see no reason to sell the Camaro there.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by BigThreeForever

Good luck to GM with this one. Excuse me while I stop smirking.

The Koreans have one of the most - perhaps the most - restricted markets in the developed world. They use any and all methods to deter foreign penetration.

Not sure if this classic is still being used, but here goes: buyers of imported cars are (or were) singled out for a special tax audit by the local tax inspectors.

Or try this one: dealers in imported cars are (or were) allocated crappy backstreet lots well away from main dealership traffic and are limited to a certain size (i.e X square meters only).

The South Koreans are not a stupid people. Far, far from it. Their government is far more shrewd and nationalistic than the naive free-market, open-borders crowd who mismanage America and Europe and their rapidly dying industrial bases.

As a matter of interest, check out how many Japanese cars are (or aren't) sold in South Korea.

These people are very, very smart.

As in my post on Chevy in Australia, the South Korean market is probably not large enough to support two volume GM brands, when you add strong nationalism (good for them) it makes more sense for GM to add any Chevy models it may want add in South Korea as Daewoo models except for the Corvette which can be sold with Cadillac.

[BBDOS CV8]

Originally Posted by YupYupYup

Because of a name change? Oh, my...Didn't you already know that Holden is American-owned and controlled by. Does that bother you? Does it bother you that this board is from the U.S. and not an Aussie-only site? Wow...

Nobody said Holden will become Chevrolet. In some ways I could see two brands operating side-by-side. Chevy at the value end and Holden a little bit more upmarket. Just look at the global GM product lines and you can visualize it.

Thank you for your concern. We were responding to suggestions that it didn't matter to anyone what brand our cars are sold under. No, not at all. No more than all the reasonable people who screamed blue murder about the Monaro being sold as the GTO.

Perhaps if Canada had an automotive industry you would understand. As it doesn't, you have no skin in this game. We have a long history with GM totally misunderstanding the market here and forcing things on Holden that have taken the company backwards in leaps and bounds.

So feel free to pull your head in.