What Is In A Name? A Big Al Rant

[Platt_Mallar]

I think the reason people know about (and subsequently put-off by) the platform names is because GM used them in so many cars. And the cars on the same platform looked so similar. What was the difference between a Buick and an Oldsmobile? When I was a kid, I thought it was the same brand, maybe with different trim levels or something. People figured, you seen one, you seen 'em all. So, they found a way to just group them up.

If GM can differentiate (at least cosmetically) the cars then I think people's obsession with W-Body or G-Body will fade away.

[commodorecoops]

Look at the Commodore's model designations. The first was built on the V body, so they named it the V car and the first was VB. They continued with the V body right through to this year with VZ. Then changed to Zeta. But the V car had built up such a good reputation that they couldn't take V out of the model codes, so they went back and used a code they hadn't used before. VE. So people still think it's the V-car. Can't have a Commodore that's not V-something. It's just not on.

[ByTheLake]

I've never noticed that I couldn't 'name' a Toyota or Honda chassis. Interesting point, but I doubt that's the main issue here.

To me, the perception that GM has some fairly old cars is because GM has some fairly old cars.

Re-skins aside, how long has the current Grand Prix been on the market? Sure its been tweaked on occasion, but its old.

To me, the perception of age was more the result of having some old cars on the market, less due to the platform names, which as you indicated, the general public has no real knowledge of.

[WishIhadatruck]

BigAl, I agree with you to a point but I feel that if GM would consistently build the best car in its class every single time then none of the names would have a negative association. When I read a review in a car magazine a while back about the current Impala SS the "W-Body" was mentioned but only to explain why the chassis wasn't competitive with the current crop of cars it competes against. If it had been updated more or was made completely new and was structurally better than the rest of the competition and in turn produced a car that felt more solid than the rest of the competition then they would not have brought it up in a negative light. Instead it either would not have been mentioned or would have been mentioned in a positive light since "W-body cars have always been ahead of the competition" or something like that. The most important thing is that they build the best cars out there with regards to style, utility, value, safety, driving enjoyment, etc. and the name won't matter at all.

Originally Posted by ByTheLake

To me, the perception that GM has some fairly old cars is because GM has some fairly old cars. Re-skins aside, how long has the current Grand Prix been on the market? Sure its been tweaked on occasion, but its old.

This is so true. I own 1 each of the 1st and 2nd W-body generations of Grand Prix's. I have a '94 and '01. The '01 is much more solid of a car than the '94 but in many was was cheapened with regards to interior materials and features. It also has a much rougher ride but does handle much better. I really don't see the next gen. of Grand Prix ('04-current) as being much of an upgrade. It is nicer in some ways but in other ways I think my '01 is better also. It surely didn't get enough of an upgrade in the chassis or anywhere else on the car either. The '97 upgrade was much more significant. I certainly wouldn't trade my '01 for a new GP ($ value aside). The lack of keeping up with the competition is the main problem here. I see GM's future looking much brighter than the past however based on the cars that are coming out now or in the near future.

[69Firebird400]

To piggyback onto what WishIhadatruck said above...

To me, the problem with the W-body isn't the age or name of the platform (and by the way, my last car was a W-body 1999 Grand Prix GTP), but it's the limitations and constraints that are placed on engineers and designers when they are forced to work with an older platform design. It's probably the reason that lots of the competition, as mkaresh said, uses their platforms for only one or two generations of a vehicle.

The W's limitations are that all three of the cars are big on the outside, but small on the inside. For the near "full-size" cars that they are, their back seats are criticized most places. Their front overhangs are much longer than is the current fashion, and in spite of styling, engine, and interior updates, the designers were just not able to make them look like a car from the first decade of the 21st century. Sure, the 2004+ Grand Prix looks different from a 1997-2003, but I can't honestly say that it looks more modern than a 1997-2003 - only that it looks different.

GM apparently agrees with me at least to some extent, since the W is dying soon, in spite of very good Impala sales, and they're going with an all new platform and in an all new direction.

[BigAls87Z28]

Well yes, all chassis at some point are replaced, but W body was by no means a poor chassis. Poor packaging, possibly, due the fact that there were still some limitations, but the cars it produced were some great cars. The best execution of the W body is the GP GXP where everything was seriously tuned to elimiate the faults of FWD is probably one of the best handling FWD cars ever made.

My point is, would you know what the difference between a 1988, 1995, 2001 and a 2007 Grand Prix's platform unless it was labled with a name? Could you determine the age of the platform by driving the cars?
This is very similar to studies does with cars with no badges, no names, just the car, and people rate the car. And then after they show the same car with badges, and the rates flux up or down depending on the badge.
Even though there has been major reengineering of the W-body, it still has the lable of W body, giving it a date. If back in 1988, W was really called D-121, and every generation change it got a new name, D-141, D-241, D-391...wouldn't logic dictate that this platform has moved along in time? People could see a general increase in numbers and think that, hey...this platform has got to be new because it has a new, bigger number. If GM had just done that, do you think that there would be any mention of "old" platforms? As stated, you couldnt possibly link a 88 Grand Prix to a 98 Grand Prix, to a 2007 Grand Prix, each cars handling would be better, engine choices would be different, transmissions changed, interior design is different, how is this any different then what Camry has done from 93 to 2004? Its different because Grand Prix's platform has a name. A name that has held it back some what from really being given an unbiased, unaltered review because as soon as C&D, MT, or anyone else reads "W body", its lashed with an old image.

[jwrebholz]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

The names aren't the problem. Otherwise Intel, AMD, and nVidia would have abandoned "Pentium", "Athlon", and "GeForce" a long time ago. Going further, every time a car is redesigned it would receive a new name. Instead, redesigns only get new names when the previous design had a poor image.

The problem with the Northstar is that it makes virtually the same power it made back in 1992. Meanwhile, BMW's V8 has gone from 282 to 360 horsepower, Mercedes has gone from 315 to 382, and Lexus has gone from 250 to 380. The Cadillac engine simply hasn't kept up.

Bingo. The N*'s bad rap isn't because of its name, it's because it's a substandard powerplant that's long overdue for a redesign.

[BigAls87Z28]

Its really not that bad. Only as of recent has BMW and MB stepped up there game.
MB had that 5.0 V8 for a WHILE, only making 302hp while Caddy had a 4.6 making 325hp. BMW's 4.0 was about 300hp as well if I recall. Infinity's 4.5 makes 315hp? And the Lexus's 4.3 made 280ish. Within a year, BMW went to a 4.8, MB went to a 5.5 V8, and Lexus went to that brand new 4.6. With in due time, Caddy's Ultra V8's will hit the market, and im sure we will see a range of them from 360-400.

[KingElvis]

"A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet."

You can't shine **** - the Camry name has been around for a good twenty years. Accord even longer. Yet the Bob Lutz and Co. think they can 'trick' people with name changes. G6, Lacrosse, etc.

Every single penny that goes into such marketing metaphysics should be redirected - maybe just on buying a little higher grade dashboard plastic, maybe on more durable gaskets or something. "The truth will out" and 'branding' efforts that are intended to trick people will inevitably fail in the long run.

[LAMRONH]

Originally Posted by guitarlix

Other than auto enthusiasts, the general consumer doesn't have the faintest clue about platform sharing or engine codes.

I have no problem giving engines names. "Northstar", for instance, sounds great. However some of the names like "Ecotec" and "Duratec" sound like something out of 1950's marketing/ads.

Agree that the typical consumer has absolutely no idea what platform he's riding on, or could give a damn either. I think 98 percent of your showroom traffic would think you're talkin' 'bout PROTUS if you refer to W, for example.
Disagree about ecotec and duratec. They sound like robots, possibly ones created by the evill Dr. Zachary Smith, from "Lost in Space."
Speaking of lost in space, that seems to be the locale of the majority of the "naming committees" or whatever corpus delectii come up with most of the new model or engine names.

[LAMRONH]

Originally Posted by KingElvis

"A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet."

You can't shine **** - the Camry name has been around for a good twenty years. Accord even longer. Yet the Bob Lutz and Co. think they can 'trick' people with name changes. G6, Lacrosse, etc.

Every single penny that goes into such marketing metaphysics should be redirected - maybe just on buying a little higher grade dashboard plastic, maybe on more durable gaskets or something. "The truth will out" and 'branding' efforts that are intended to trick people will inevitably fail in the long run.

You are exactly right about the name change/name game and the fool the customer philosophy. I am so sick of it, I'm sick of being sick of it.
If they spent half as much energy and talent on building excellent product and zero energy on fooling people they would be better off and more appreciated for being straight.
GM IMHO wastes about 80% of their ad money. As economist Walter Williams has said numerous times about wasted tax revenues, I think if GM burned those ad dollars one dollar bill at a time heating a building they'd be better spent.
Heated washer fluid... That was the sorriest, most embarassing campaign I've seen in a while.

[New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66]

Boy, was that allot of hot-air.

It's about product, product, product, product.

[usa1]

There's nothing wrong with the names. The problem is GM keeps platforms around for much much too long. The "new" Chevy Impala is mediocre because it does date back to the platform from the 1980's. The Northstar feel dated because, well, it is. It came out as a 300 HP V8 and it's at best a 320 HP V8 in NA form. Where's the progress?

Mark

[minnfang]

I like most of your rants but sorry, don't agree with you on this one. Brand names are a huge part of the American culture and they do help sell things. People don't care that the Hemi came out in the 50s - they just want one.

[Highlander]

Between my brother and I we have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation W-body Grand Prixs. A 1989 SE (top of the line until the McLaren came out mid-year), a 1998 GTP 2 door, and an 04 GTP Comp G. I've also driven an 05 GXP which a friend of mine owns.

Each of these cars has been an improvment over the previous without a doubt. In ride, driving dynamics, handling etc. While not everything was ever changed, I believe you'd have a hard time finding much in common with the 1st gen vs a third. I'm still a firm believer that this car doen't get the respect it deserves. What's wrong with improving a good platform? Should we just toss it aside because it's name dates back 20 years and often unfair perceptions? We're always talking about unfair perceptions vs. reality with the GM vs. Toyota issue. To me in many ways the W-body suffers from unfair perceptions as well. Is there room for improvements.... Yes. Does it deserve the bashing is recieves...No. Maybe if they had been called WI, WII, WIII or had it's name changed we wouldn't be discussing this.
Also, the Lumina had some intermediate generations of the W-body as well (generation 1.5 I guess you could say) So, this platform as been improved with what was learned many times... Nothing wrong with that. Although, I'm not saying a day doesn't come when it's time to retire and start with a clean sheet either.