Time For a Smaller Car Standard?

[AndrewGS]

Originally Posted by Puzzel

That sentiment is contrary to what the majority of TX motorcyclists I've encountered say. And being "exposed to the weather" is a major factor in the enjoyment of 2-wheel travel for most riders, no matter where you live.

Most motorcycles get 40-45 mpg combined -- the 70 mpg bikes are generally small and low power, like the Buell Blast or Kawasaki Ninja 250R. But even the most inefficient bikes (ie large motor choppers) can usually achieve 25+ mpg city driving.

Well, here in coastal Texas where the dew point is usually over 70 degrees while the temperature is usually over 90 degrees for 4 months of the year and sudden showers are common, I don't want to rely on an open vehicle for my main mode of transportation. Biking is fun when it's for pleasure, but a pain when it's out of necessity.

[Ming]

I wish we'd get more sudden showers...my yard is as dry as a bone up NW of Houston...

[AndrewGS]

Originally Posted by Ming

I wish we'd get more sudden showers...my yard is as dry as a bone up NW of Houston...

It's been raining just enough to create a bunch of steam and make it even less tolerable out.

[377Z]

I am perplexed at the reasoning behind the viewpoint common to many detractors, that basically amounts to:

"It is not an attractive option to me, so no one should be allowed to choose."

I'm sorry, but that's juvenile.

Another common sentiment is the need to cater to the lowest common denominator & turn every car into a tank. This one is easier to understand, since the gub'ment is taking on more nanny duties as time goes on. "But think of the Children!" Personal responsibility is dead. Maybe now they'll mandate that all cars must also float so that when our crumbling bridges collapse there will be fewer casualties, or when crash testing with planes will begin so that people don't die when airliners go off the runway & into traffic.

[Ming]

Originally Posted by 377Z

I am perplexed at the reasoning behind the viewpoint common to many detractors, that basically amounts to:

"It is not an attractive option to me, so no one should be allowed to choose."

I'm sorry, but that's juvenile.

Another common sentiment is the need to cater to the lowest common denominator & turn every car into a tank. This one is easier to understand, since the gub'ment is taking on more nanny duties as time goes on. "But think of the Children!" Personal responsibility is dead. Maybe now they'll mandate that all cars must also float so that when our crumbling bridges collapse there will be fewer casualties, or when crash testing with planes will begin so that people don't die when airliners go off the runway & into traffic.

It's a bit funny too, since these are often the same guys who cry foul when someone threatens their guzzlers with special taxes, or otherwise tries to deny them their favorite choice of vehicle type. They're perfectly fine with doing it to us, and shrugging at motorcycles with a snort as if they were irrelevant to the conversation.

I think deep down they are afraid that if more Americans embrace smaller cars, that the "need" for giant tanks will be exposed as a fraud, and an issue of personal taste.

They may well be afraid that a proliferation of Kei style cars or tiny vans and trucks will end up with people realizing just how much can be done with innovation in smaller vehicles, and will find resources spent on large trucks by automakers dwindle to support the reality --- only where they are needed for heavy duty farm-type applications, or as rare as exotic sports cars for those who choose the largest vehicles possible (like a Chevy Kodiak with a truck bed).

So in essence, the resistance to small vehicles is not about safety, but about insecurity that their own favorite vehicles will somehow become obsolete or as out-of-favor as a 1970's Disco Van.

Sure, there are some with legitimate concerns about safety, but a user with a name like MrBigRig, is hardly to be trusted to be imparial and objective on small cars when he just doesn't like or want to experience small car culture.

The worst of it is that there are those who in my opinion will assist with the downfall of GM out of their own selfishly narrow tastes -- GM fans who think that small cars are and should always be the domain of the Japanese or Europeans (even while the Japanese encroach on the SUV and Truck market), and resist or ridicule GM for trying to edge in on the small car market. They are the same sorts of folks you see around here with a Suburban on one side of the driveway, and a Civic on the other....while simultaneously saying things like "I'd never buy one of those crappy small GM cars".

[psece]

Americans are a very pragmatic, live for today bunch. They bought big SUV because they were big, nice riding and gas was cheap. A majority of these people bought domestics. That bunch is still driving their SUV's because they know that they aren't going to get jack for their trade-in. This group is right now looking for that next purchase in 1 to 3 years. This is the group that the domestics need to create a vehicle for. They don't have the anti-domestic feelings the import buyers have. GM, Ford and Chrysler need to create a vehicle for these people.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Ming

The worst of it is that there are those who in my opinion will assist with the downfall of GM out of their own selfishly narrow tastes -- GM fans who think that small cars are and should always be the domain of the Japanese or Europeans (even while the Japanese encroach on the SUV and Truck market), and resist or ridicule GM for trying to edge in on the small car market. They are the same sorts of folks you see around here with a Suburban on one side of the driveway, and a Civic on the other....while simultaneously saying things like "I'd never buy one of those crappy small GM cars".

No GM’s downfall will be the fact that they put Daewoo in charge of their small cars. Toyota and Honda are building competitive small cars while GM has a company that did so bad they went under building their’s.

And basically noone buys European small cars (unless you want to argue that the 3-Series is a economy car). VW’s sales are crap.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by Elk

No GM’s downfall will be the fact that they put Daewoo in charge of their small cars. Toyota and Honda are building competitive small cars while GM has a company that did so bad they went under building their’s.

And basically noone buys European small cars (unless you want to argue that the 3-Series is a economy car). VW’s sales are crap.

You must be fun at parties.

[jvanleuvan]

Here's the thing, in my mind. Any car, to really be usefull (not just trendy for the save the planet types) in the US needs to be able to attain and maintain safely 75MPH. IF not what's the use?

Most of americans' mileage is spent commuting to work. This commute almost always includes freeway travel. which is useually around 75 MPH.

I'm an average american. I live in the suburbs (because I cannot afford $600,000 for a house nearer to the city) I commute about 30 miles on a freeway to work every day.

SO any car that cannot drive on the freeway I can't use for my commute.(or for that matter any other buisness I have out of town, like jury duty, or an infinate list of other things I cannot take care of in my city)

so Such a car would be a second, "around town car" But I don't NEED a High mileage around town car and a lower mileage commuter. thats backwards. I need a high mileage car for going long distances by myself and a larger car to take the family around town.

My friend, in the land of $4.50 gas, just bought a SUV, WHY? cause he needs the space and works in town. When your weekly milage is 50, the difference between 15MPG and 40MPG is less than $10 a week(considering he pays $1750 in rent $10 is less than a drop in the bucket)

And I probably drive less that 50 miles a week in town(to the market and back etc...)

Even if you were retired and only really travelled around town, an non-freeway auto would still have to be a SECOND car, what about when you get jury duty 3 towns over, or need to go to the county seat for offical documents (see the cleark recorder or something) Or for that matter go to the mall thats 2 towns over?

and yes I know you could try to take the "backroads" but thats not really an option most of the time as those will take you (at least in my area) way out of your way(according to google maps my commute would more than double if i chose to "avoid Highways")

I am all for a smaller car - I will probably replace my car with the next fiesta when it comes out... But it needs to work with the way the U.S. roads are designed.

[Ming]

I understand what you're saying, jvanleuvan, but my commute is quite a long one, and aside from the country roads with 45MPH speed limits that make up 80% of my commute, along a small stretch of highway I drive it's only 65MPH or so. The Kei cars I rode in while living in Japan were more than capable of that speed. The RPM's were up there, no doubt, but they were not incapable of high speeds. These are not electric carts with a top speed of 40, once you get them going, they can keep up quite well.

My friend in Japan commutes at about 50MPH on the highway every day in Northern Japan in his tiny (quite comfortable actually) turbocharged Kei car, and his car manages it without a sweat. 65 is doable. 75 is pushing it, but can be maintained for a few miles if needed. I'd worry more about stability at high speeds than the engine.

None of that may matter if Congress passes a new 55MPH bill into law, anyway...!

Then you'll have your wish, just not quite in the way you might have been hoping for it.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Ming

My friend in Japan commutes at about 50MPH on the highway every day in Northern Japan in his tiny (quite comfortable actually) turbocharged Kei car, and his car manages it without a sweat. 65 is doable. 75 is pushing it, but can be maintained for a few miles if needed. I'd worry more about stability at high speeds than the engine.

And his turbo Kei car’s fuel economy is?

[schmallz]

Originally Posted by Elk

No GM’s downfall will be the fact that they put Daewoo in charge of their small cars. Toyota and Honda are building competitive small cars while GM has a company that did so bad they went under building their’s.

And basically noone buys European small cars (unless you want to argue that the 3-Series is a economy car). VW’s sales are crap.

Get your head out of your a**.

Small European Cars sell like hot cakes.

1 Series, Rabbit, A3, Mini, Smart 4-2. I see these things by the dozens everyday.

3 Series is smaller than a Coblat...

[Elk]

Originally Posted by schmallz

Get your head out of your a**.

Small European Cars sell like hot cakes.

1 Series, Rabbit, A3, Mini, Smart 4-2. I see these things by the dozens everyday.

3 Series is smaller than a Coblat...

Look for your self:
http://www.media.vw.com/article_disp...ticle_id=10344

The Pontiac G5 outsells the Rabbit. 12,491 vs 11,795:
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayS...=6&docid=46752

They might sell good in your part of California, but that’s it everywhere else their sales are crap.

[Ming]

Kei and what Americans call "small" cars also make up more than 50% of the market in Japan right now. Because even the Beat with a 1.2L Turbo engine would have twice the displacement of a typical Kei car, and the Kei car market alone is about 50% of the Japanese market --- add larger cars like the Fit, Yaris or SX4 and very small (by American standards) minvans into the mix and you're looking, I'd guess, at nearly 70% of the market with those "small" cars Americans like to poop on as "unuseable" so much. Tiny Kei trucks hauling stuff around a megacity and out into the countryside. HOW-DO-THEY-DO-IT!?!?! (without 300 horsepower and long arse hoods?) Why aren't the Japanese living in a 3rd world economy when they have to make do with so many Kei vehicles like 3-cylinder pickups -- against the raging instinct that says all humans desire 8-passenger crossover SUVs and huge 80's style cars with long hoods and overhangs?



And my friend's fuel economy? I asked and he said it is much better since he got a newer turbocharged car - he used to try driving the same way with a naturally aspirated Kei car and noticed the poor fuel economy and crazy RPMs since he needs to ride on the highway. He considered a non-Kei car but hates paying all of the extra taxes that the Kei cars are exempt from, and his carport is not comfortably large enough for anything else. He usually drives about 75KPH (with short bursts of 100KPH), which is coincidentally about the speed of most of my back roads Texas country commute in to the greater Houston area.

And Volkswagen? I dunno, I've never been interested. Every Volkswagen I've ever looked at was ridiculously overpriced, and it can't be getting better with the Euro. I have to think that the pricing and the less than stellar reputation for reliability (from the infamous German over-engineering) has something to do with their low sales.

I wish more people would let me have my minicar without attempts to sabotage it with a "can't do attitude". Or a reality-check that somehow sees into the future and assumes "no one" will buy a smaller car "like in Europe". Or the idea that GM must be a Dinosaur and a follower when it comes to small cars -- let the Japanese or someone else take the risk first.

But really, you seem to be on a crusade against these cars, Elk. No one's going to take away your Caprice Classic, man.

Seriously, though, I just want choices. How many Kodiaks and Top Kicks did/does GM sell to non-business/fleet buyers? There are buyers for those vehicles (especially around here in Texas), and some might even call them "unsafe" (to people around them) as vanity pickups like the Ironhide Edition Topkick. I say bring 'em on, more choices all around!

Not to direct this at you Elk, but others seem to be threatened by the prospect of Crosley-style cars returning to an American automaker. A palpable anger in some of these small car threads that goes beyond a simple interest in GM's sales figures if it produces them or safety concerns.

As a long time fan of GM's small cars, wagons and hatches, I can say with some confidence that it has been like this on most GM fansites for many years. While claiming to be "GM" fans, there are those who ridicule and resist GM's small car efforts - unless they are sporty cars like the Solstice or Fiero (and even with cars like those, in some cases).

You can't expect a majority of the typical car enthusiasts to embrace tiny econoboxes. But small cars have a lot of potential beyond Ford Festivas of yore. Look at the MINI. Or some of the very well trimmed out Japanese Kei cars with HID headlights, and technology galore. Not everyone wants to drive the same type of car that the typical GM car fan does.

I'm not sure I can argue with you effectively about Daewoo in the USA (my anecdotal satisfaction with my Forenza Wagon aside), but GM's other options, building small cars here or in Europe would not have made money sense in 2003 or so. The dollar was not in the pits like it is now.

Still, you simply have no ground to stand on if you try to take anything away from GM Daewoo's international sales success for GM, as Chevy in Europe, for instance. The Europeans were not going for Trailblazers, Ventures and Astros in huge numbers. That's the sort of car Chevy was offering over there with very limited success. It took GMDAT to turn Chevy of Europe into what it is today, a growing powerhouse. Opel has not seen the same kind of sales growth. Why?

Some people actually appreciate the value that GMDAT cars offer.

Look at Holden as an example of how small Opels did not quite work out for them, either. From what I understand, they were simply too pricey (though imported).

Perhaps engineering small cars with Opel heading it up - like the Corsa - here and building them in Mexico would have made more sense. I think we will see a lot of collaboration between GM and its international units -- more than just leaving it up to GMDAT or GM do Brasil, Detroit will have a more active role with the development of these cars knowing that it wants to build and sell them here.

Someone at GM had to have thought of that, since last I checked, Mexico and South American countries produce Opel models already. There must have been a reason that GM Daewoo came off as more attractive (aside from the styling, which GMDAT models generally have more up-to-date than South American small cars).

Or perhaps GM should have stuck with its old Suzuki alliance, and kept pushing for a Metro replacement, instead of bringing the Aveo here.

Let's hope for GM to make the best of this, not get lost in a miasma of nostalgia for a do-it-alone American GM of the 1960's (making only big cars and trucks because "small cars don't sell") to return. That's not coming back any time soon.

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by Ming

The worst of it is that there are those who in my opinion will assist with the downfall of GM out of their own selfishly narrow tastes -- GM fans who think that small cars are and should always be the domain of the Japanese or Europeans (even while the Japanese encroach on the SUV and Truck market), and resist or ridicule GM for trying to edge in on the small car market. They are the same sorts of folks you see around here with a Suburban on one side of the driveway, and a Civic on the other....while simultaneously saying things like "I'd never buy one of those crappy small GM cars".

Hi Ming:

You are supposed to be merciless, but I too share your above-entitled sentiments. Too many of GMI members give GM the wrong impression of the market, and don't purchase what they have pushed. How many have asked that the Camaro be re-introduced and now that the factory has given it the greenlight, will never purchase one?

GM must create smaller more long-range vehicles using State of the Art technology, or the company will come to a grinding halt. I have seen another poster say "I expect Gasoline to return to $60.00 a barrel by next year." These are the same people who should return to High School and get a GED. When you have lived for a while you realize "Prices never come back down, they continue to go up! This is what all the auto manufacturers should have known, if they didn't, they will pay with dwindling market share, or possible insolvency.