Time For a Smaller Car Standard?

[tgagneguam]

Kodos called this discussion correctly. Consumers should decide if the idea of a kei car has any merit.

Long before CAFE has hit, we are seeing consumers solving the problem of rising fuel costs. Some have taken to public transportation; ridership is up in every major metropolitan area, mostly by double digits. Small car sales in the past few months have risen in a declining overall market, and FS vehicles are seeing their sales tank. Imagine that? Consumers are doing what's best even though the government is not telling them what to do.

And to top it off, gasoline demand has fallen a bit as prices have skyrocketed, and the trade deficit dropped in part because of lower oil imports. Can you believe it? Again, how is this happening without the Federal and State governments not directing consumers?

Damned free citizens, acting all free and making their own choices. There oughta be a law against it!

[psece]

When the Japanese started selling cars here, they were very small and so was their slice of the American car market. As their cars grew in size, so did their slice!

Safety regulations came about for other reasons too. If something starts costing the government too much money, they regulate it. How many people who get hurt in a auto accident and require long term care? A lot of medicare goes towards the long term care of those who don't have insurance or can't sue others for the money. A lot of Social Security Benefits goes towards the surviving family of bread winners that were killed in auto accidents. The government isn't about to allow Kei cars in here without safety.

Insurance companies will also put higher rates on those cars that cost it more. So if Kei cars do end up being unsafe, those who want them will end up paying more for the pleasure of driving one.

And the reason why Kei cars won't do well here initially, there is no incentive. People will compromise if there are benefits. What are the benefits for them? Great gas mileage? Maybe but I don't think the price is there yet. Tax breaks(a form of regulation)? Cheaper parking rates? HOV lanes(another form of regulation and worked so well for hybrids)?

I believe the future is electric and the only small detail to work out is the form of storage. Hydrogen has the same issues as gas in that you have to count on a distribution system. Batteries and super capacitors are in there infancy as far as technology goes(consumer batteries didn't change much in make up until portable devices started being used). If the Chevy Volt happens and has 40 mile range pure electric in 2010. What range might it have in 2015, 2020?

I think GM is smart in putting some eggs in the Volt basket. It is the electric commuter car that can be used on the weekends to go to the beach with the gas generator. It is a no compromise solution that Americans like!

[Lunden]

[quote=kodos78;1397480]Why not trust people to buy the cars that they want?

I would love to. Americans seem to be "Stuck on stupid though".

Many can't drive, or choose to drive like idiots. Many more still eat, talk on their cell phones, put on makup ect while "Driving".

Simple terms, Americans do not (Like so many other things) RESPECT driving. They think they are the only ones on the road and drive like it. Or without a care in the world.

If I were a cop the number of "Reckless driving" tickets I would dole out wold be amazing....but I would go to court on everyone.

I am not a winy Liberal and don't like laws anymore than anyone else. Hoever we seem doomed to be stupid and will pay for it.

Truth be told. Time to kick the Oil addiction and move to Hydrogen....

If my taxes go up to fund a new infastructure GREAT!

[ogg vorbis]

Originally Posted by LAMRONH

Well for one thing, many of us Neanderthals carry swords or machetes regularly.

I owned a 600cc Honda car in the 1970s. I also owned a VW Superbeetle. Neither of them would do well in a collision with an Escalade, but neither would a motorcycle.

I say build them and the customers will appear. What you lose in crashworthiness you gain in agility.

The vehicle is no more dangerous than a pistol is. It's the operator who controls the machine or the tool.

REAL DRIVER TRAINING will do more to cut road deaths and injuries than all the airbags in the world and all the windbags in Worshington.

i totally agree with you, and this article. considering how stupid easy a 16 yr old can get a license, i really don't believe the government WANTS competent drivers. it helps control the people population, provides organs for sick people, and feeds insurance companies. government would rather strong arm another industry than clean up its own house! they're legislating more and more freedoms away from us, for the illusion of safety.

to paraphrase george carlin, "don't be such a frickin wussy, live a little dangerously". it's good for ya! the effect of living in a sterile environment is super viruses that turn your insides to mush. the "illusion" of safe cars makes people drive even worse, disrespecting other drivers and laws.

[ogg vorbis]

Originally Posted by tgagneguam

Kodos called this discussion correctly. Consumers should decide if the idea of a kei car has any merit.

Damned free citizens, acting all free and making their own choices. There oughta be a law against it!

don't encourage the government! they're already working on it.

not having endless amounts of disposable income makes the decisions...not the people. not too many people have financial freedom. in some cases it's either save on gas, or don't eat, or lose your house. there's no freedom of choice if you're being coerced into a certain behaviour - be it government or prices outside your means, or even credit limit.

most people use their cars to commute, and not car pooling. it doesn't make sense to waste gas transporting the car. the driver is only 5% of the load (180 lb driver, 3500 lb car), but still uses 100% of the fuel.

[johnny smallblock]

Well, super-viruses aside, I would like to be able to commute in a 2 or 3 seater city car. If it were the size of a smart car, I could park it with no problems. If it got 40-50 mpg (city) I would be happy driving it everyday. Sounds like most of you guys don't live in places where a city car might be useful, so it makes sense that you wouldn't want one. But some of us would buy one from any company that would sell it.

[paul8488]

Originally Posted by PeterPuck

The driving conditions in North America really are different than they are in Japan and Europe.

They're really not. Highways here are 130 km/h, and national roads are 90 km/h. I drive faster there than I did in Canada. There are big cities with crazy traffic and long open country roads for fast cruising. The big difference is the number of SUVs, but there are as many (if not more) transports on the roads here, and a big number of large, solid BMWs and Mercedes ready to crumple up a Twingo or Matiz.

I can understand if someone doesn't want to put their family in one, but I like the idea of having another option. On roads where Suburbans meet Aveos meet motorcycles meet mopeds meet pedestrians, what's so bad about one more vehicle size jammed in there somewhere?

[benroethig]

I agree. Think of these are more or less covered motorcycles. You don't have much of a chance for survival in a crash, but but its going to save you a lot of money on fuel.

[Ming]

Originally Posted by psece

And the reason why Kei cars won't do well here initially, there is no incentive. People will compromise if there are benefits. What are the benefits for them? Great gas mileage? Maybe but I don't think the price is there yet.

I believe the future is electric and the only small detail to work out is the form of storage.

I think GM is smart in putting some eggs in the Volt basket. It is the electric commuter car that can be used on the weekends to go to the beach with the gas generator. It is a no compromise solution that Americans like!

The main problem I have with electric in the short term is price. I doubt we will see many $12,000 Volts. We'd be lucky to see them for twice that, unless GM makes a price promise and sticks to it. Then there's the matter of supply. If the Volt is anything like the EV1, restricted to certain markets (like California and two other states) for a long period of time, the Volt will simply be unavailable and out of reach for years for most Americans.

The Volt needs an attractive price tag and good supply to be a real solution in the next 5 years.

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by Ming

...And some posts will just get lost in the mix in a multi-page thread.

Ming - great topic, and I agree that our laws and our legal system in general tend to favor designs that increase safety margin as time goes on. Kind of like an arms race with Vehicle Mass.

There are a few flaws in your argument that Kei cars are safer than motorcycles however -

1.) Bikes are ridden (in general) by people who have to get cycle endorsements, drive manual transmissions, and are very aware of the dangers they are undertaking - just by the sheer fact that the controls are completely different from cars, these people have to take the trouble to learn to ride a bike.

Kei cars would be driven by people with no training whatsoever in how these vehicles handle differently on a bridge during windy weather, how crushable they are if you happen to hit a mailbox, what part of you will go through that suburban's trailer hitch if you follow too close or if he doesn't see you while he's backing up to get into the left turn lane.

Statistics are probably on your side, but I'm not sure they apply with two different populations in two different environments. I'd like to know, for example, how many accidents / deaths per million miles people in Japan see on scooters, motorcycles, and kei cars.

2) Physics and economics says that this process should be gradual to allow people time to buy smaller cars, adjust to smaller cars, laws to change so that automakers are not liable for producing smaller cars - The first courageous act will be when a politician brings up legislation that he knows will make cars slightly less safe but will force them to get smaller (CAFE). Once the public accepts this step, we can move on to cars that are even smaller but also give up some SUV compatibility features (since there aren't as many on the roads by then). After a few years of that, someone will realize how silly the side impact requirements are (or publish statistics on how few lives side airbags have actually saved), and we'll all gravitate back to cars with 6" thick doors because of their roomy cabins.

3) As I alluded to earlier, our laws are set up to encourage manufacturers to design beyond the standard (remember side-saddle gas tanks?). So even if you got the government to say that automakers could build cars that didn't meet requirements X, Y, and Z, there's still lots of lawyers groups that would start large class action lawsuits to show that the automakers and even NHTSA were harming consumers. Again the process has to be gradual so that people's priorities are given time to change. That is the important thing for every case that will be tried by a jury.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by ogg vorbis

the "illusion" of safe cars makes people drive even worse, disrespecting other drivers and laws.

Back when airbags were introduced some interesting facts emerged that didn't get talked about much. Chrysler offered some models with and without airbags before they were mandatory. Insurance statistics over the life of those vehicles showed that the airbag equipped cars did not produce less injury or death.

Seems that when people think they are made safer by technology they take more risks and that extra risk taking cancels out the safety benefit. People who drive cars they feel they may not survive a crash in drive far more safely and defensively and avoid accidents more than those in large SUV's filled with airbags and whose drivers feel immune from the danger of accidents.

This led one researcher to suggest that the safest device one could install in a car to lower the number of crashes, and therefore injury and death, was a 6 inch knife blade sticking out of the steering wheel aimed directly at the drivers chest.

[DiRF]

Originally Posted by mbukukanyau

I like Suburbans... Don't you?

Then these kei-cars might be right up your alley...

[Ming]

Originally Posted by blkwrxsti

Kei cars would be driven by people with no training whatsoever in how these vehicles handle differently on a bridge during windy weather, how crushable they are if you happen to hit a mailbox, what part of you will go through that suburban's trailer hitch if you follow too close or if he doesn't see you while he's backing up to get into the left turn lane.

Statistics are probably on your side, but I'm not sure they apply with two different populations in two different environments. I'd like to know, for example, how many accidents / deaths per million miles people in Japan see on scooters, motorcycles, and kei cars.

Good points blkwrxsti. The Kei car market is around 50% of the car market in Japan, if memory serves. So many people I knew who had them bought them as their first cars and learned to drive in Kei cars. Speed limits also are generally much lower in and around Tokyo and even out in the countryside. I'd guess the typical highway outside of Tokyo is around 50MPH, where Kei cars can cruise comfortably - especially if they are turbocharged, as many are to skirt the 660cc rule and boost power further.

Another thing I would emphasize is that, on the whole, Japanese drivers seemed much more skilled than typical American drivers. They have to pay around $2,000 for lengthy drivers ed courses that teach things like parallel parking in extremely tight spots and run complex obstacle courses. I've ridden with friends who scared the bejeezus out of me by driving only centimeters away from other cars on narrow mountain passes when both were in Kei cars or Kei trucks. I'd never attempt such close proximity driving, but then again, American cars tend to have much longer hoods and you can't always see where they end accurately.

Originally Posted by DiRF

Then these kei-cars might be right up your alley...

Ha - nice one DiRF. I love retro American looks but hate the fuel economy - so a car like that would be perfect for me.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by DiRF

Sometimes it feels like people are intentionally ignoring my posts...

Sorry, DiRF... I don't know how I missed your post! I just noticed it! Thanks for the info though!

I'm in LOOOOVE with those baby-Suburbans now!

[AndrewGS]

Originally Posted by DiRF

Then these kei-cars might be right up your alley...

Those are the most awesome things I've ever seen. In my life. Ever.