There's no G.M. In "Alliance"

[paul3230]

Amen!! That's the truth...I have pride that GM can rebound on their own!

[Gm786]

Great write up Ming. I agree, GM should do this alone and refuse an alliance with Nissan/Renault. I'm just hoping that Rick Wagoner makes the right move.

[BigC]

Grumbles,
Toyota makes appliances GM makes cars. Whens the last time you heard someone say man I wish I could get my hands on one of those new Camarys, and when is the last time you heard the same thing about an Impala SS or Monte Carlo or Grand Prix. Or better yet as of now what car does Toyota have that inspires people the way that the Corvette does, they don't have one. I won't disagree Toyota makes some of the most reliable vechicles ever, but at the same time they also make some of the most boring cars ever. Like it is with GM, all is not perfect at Toyota, and even they could benifit from GM.

Personally I don't want to see GM involved with any automaker at this time I think they are on the right track as far as product development goes, now if they could only do something to make there labor costs more competitive with there foriegn rivals.

Excellent article by the way!

[Ty_99]

Originally Posted by BigC

Grumbles,
Toyota makes appliances GM makes cars. Whens the last time you heard someone say man I wish I could get my hands on one of those new Camarys, and when is the last time you heard the same thing about an Impala SS or Monte Carlo or Grand Prix. Or better yet as of now what car does Toyota have that inspires people the way that the Corvette does, they don't have one. I won't disagree Toyota makes some of the most reliable vechicles ever, but at the same time they also make some of the most boring cars ever. Like it is with GM, all is not perfect at Toyota, and even they could benifit from GM.

Personally I don't want to see GM involved with any automaker at this time I think they are on the right track as far as product development goes, now if they could only do something to make there labor costs more competitive with there foriegn rivals.

Excellent article by the way!

Careful, people get moody when u call Toyota and Lexus appliances, I found out the hard way.

[mikesright]

Originally Posted by grumbles

You know what, you're right.

Toyota would do away with all of GM's ancient technology, and rightfully so, which is why I'd love to see a GM/Toyota alliance.


I love this, I absolutely love it. You are somehow convined that GM's current pushrod powerplants and their current platforms are somehow superior to those of Toyota, and you compare them to powerplants and platforms that haven't even been released or reviewed yet. The V8 in the LS460/LS600hL/IS500/whatever else is brand new, we have virtually no info on it, yet it is all of a sudden inferoir to the LS7 or whatever else.

Why is this? Why is it inferior? How do you know? Where did you get your information? Did a Toyota engineer confess to you how awesomely incredible GM's powerplants are, and how inferior Toyotas are?

What about the platforms? Did you somehow attain specs of the new Lexus LF-A's (the high-revving v10 supercar that's been tearing around the nurburgerking, for those who dont know) platform, and figure out that it was superior to the Corvette, leaf springs and all?

GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, as there's a lot of things they clearly aren't capable of, that Toyota is.

First, building a fuel-efficient 4cyl powerplant for it's lower-end vehicles. The ecotec is easily the least efficient engine in it's class, hell, the Vibe gets better mileage than almost any other GM vehicle.

Second, building a fuel-efficient high-tech 6cyl ohc for everything else. The 3.5 V6 Toyota has had in the IS350, Avalon, Camry, and a few other vehicles for a few years tops the brand new GM V6 going into the Aura and other vehicles, not only in hp/tq ratings, but in fuel efficiency also.

Third, hybrid systems. Toyota is undoubtedly the leader here, with more hybrid vehicles now and in the future than anyone else, and GM could stand to benefit greatly from Toyota in this area.

GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, and lose almost nothing with any sort of material worth.

What can GM do alone? They can be second, third, fourth, fifth best, but they will never be at the top again without some sort of help.

(Edit by Ming - See my reply, and watch the cursing)

REAALLY GRUMBLES!

You prove your stupidity everyday. GM's small-block has been on top for over 50 years. That's proof that the LS2, LS4, LS7, and LS9, as well as the numerous truck variations, are and will continue to lead the pack. Nobody does the hp numbers better than the small-block, and the package can't be as compact and lightweight as the low-profile aluminum block PUSH-ROD small-block found in your GM vehicles. Toyota still can't find the efficiency, or how to produce Active Fuel Management in their V8's. I wonder why the engines haven't been unveiled yet?

GM's new HF V6 is getting DI for 2007. Expect better fuel economy and 280+ hp from all engines. It's an improvement Toyota can't make to it's engines, because they have already gotten it, and the HF V6 is already making 267 hp without it! They (Toyota) will really need help there!

The Ecotec is one of the most efficient engines in its class, making 145 hp in the Cobalt, while getting 34 mpg hwy, while the Corolla gets 38 mpg, but only with the help of 126 hp. It also has much better torque (155 lb/ft) than the Corolla (122 lb/ft). Suddenly, the Corolla has the engine that is inefficient...

As for the comment about the Corvette, we know you're jealous of the $65,000 car, one that just happens to lap the Nurinburgring in under 7:45, and the 3.7 sec 0-60 times, all with that "antique" pushrod V8 that happens to get 26 mpg while making 505 hp, and that leaf spring suspension, which happens to beat Porsches and Ferraris all day long. We know that you've spent too much time in that ugly Camry, commuting to McDonald's...

And lastly, hybrids. GM is the leader here, not Toyota anymore. Starting in a month or two, 3 hybrid systems are coming out. One is the very inexpensive, but thrifty BAS system (which eliminates $2500 of Toyota's $4500 premium). The second is the 2Mode, which optimizes highway efficiency (unlike Toyota's system, which only provides power while passing), and the ZeroMode, which will be a full hybrid that can be plugged in, and used as electric-only at the driver's command.

Who stands to gain here? Toyota, anyone?

[BigC]

^

[guitarlix]

I don't think Toyota of all company's needs any help from anyone. They can afford to hire the very best engineers and you can bet that they do.

The only reason they might consider an alliance is for purposes of market share or for something like onstar. They definitely don't need anyone's help developing powertrains.

[guitarlix]

Originally Posted by mikesright

Who stands to gain here? Toyota, anyone?

Er....no.

[IROCNROL1]

Originally Posted by mikesright

REAALLY GRUMBLES!

You prove your stupidity everyday. GM's small-block has been on top for over 50 years. That's proof that the LS2, LS4, LS7, and LS9, as well as the numerous truck variations, are and will continue to lead the pack. Nobody does the hp numbers better than the small-block, and the package can't be as compact and lightweight as the low-profile aluminum block PUSH-ROD small-block found in your GM vehicles. Toyota still can't find the efficiency, or how to produce Active Fuel Management in their V8's. I wonder why the engines haven't been unveiled yet?

GM's new HF V6 is getting DI for 2007. Expect better fuel economy and 280+ hp from all engines. It's an improvement Toyota can't make to it's engines, because they have already gotten it, and the HF V6 is already making 267 hp without it! They (Toyota) will really need help there!

The Ecotec is one of the most efficient engines in its class, making 145 hp in the Cobalt, while getting 34 mpg hwy, while the Corolla gets 38 mpg, but only with the help of 126 hp. It also has much better torque (155 lb/ft) than the Corolla (122 lb/ft). Suddenly, the Corolla has the engine that is inefficient...

As for the comment about the Corvette, we know you're jealous of the $65,000 car, one that just happens to lap the Nurinburgring in under 7:45, and the 3.7 sec 0-60 times, all with that "antique" pushrod V8 that happens to get 26 mpg while making 505 hp, and that leaf spring suspension, which happens to beat Porsches and Ferraris all day long. We know that you've spent too much time in that ugly Camry, commuting to McDonald's...

And lastly, hybrids. GM is the leader here, not Toyota anymore. Starting in a month or two, 3 hybrid systems are coming out. One is the very inexpensive, but thrifty BAS system (which eliminates $2500 of Toyota's $4500 premium). The second is the 2Mode, which optimizes highway efficiency (unlike Toyota's system, which only provides power while passing), and the ZeroMode, which will be a full hybrid that can be plugged in, and used as electric-only at the driver's command.

Who stands to gain here? Toyota, anyone?

Good job, Mike. Perhaps grumbles should fess up and change his username to SUPERTROLL.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by Ty_99

Careful, people get moody when u call Toyota and Lexus appliances, I found out the hard way.

Toyota and Lexus people ALWAYS get moody!

Here's a tip, if under their name it says "Level 1 Members" ignore them and their drivel. Unless you enjoy humor, which I personally do from time to time.

BTW I just realized I've been on GMi a year....

[SimonDavid]

That confidence / arrogance has produced the most profitable company in the world, with a market cap 10 times GM's, which could buy GM tomorrow with loose change

[grumbles]

Originally Posted by mikesright

REAALLY GRUMBLES!

You prove your stupidity everyday. GM's small-block has been on top for over 50 years. That's proof that the LS2, LS4, LS7, and LS9, as well as the numerous truck variations, are and will continue to lead the pack. Nobody does the hp numbers better than the small-block, and the package can't be as compact and lightweight as the low-profile aluminum block PUSH-ROD small-block found in your GM vehicles. Toyota still can't find the efficiency, or how to produce Active Fuel Management in their V8's. I wonder why the engines haven't been unveiled yet?

You're serious, aren't you? It isn't all about hp/tq, it's the entire package. Saying Toyota can't do this, or Toyota can't do that, based on an older design, means nothing to anyone at all.

GM's new HF V6 is getting DI for 2007. Expect better fuel economy and 280+ hp from all engines. It's an improvement Toyota can't make to it's engines, because they have already gotten it, and the HF V6 is already making 267 hp without it! They (Toyota) will really need help there!

The V6 in the Aura makes 252hp, compared to 267 in the Camry. I don't have torque figures but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that GM could benefit from a more powerful, more efficient engine, period.

The Ecotec is one of the most efficient engines in its class, making 145 hp in the Cobalt, while getting 34 mpg hwy, while the Corolla gets 38 mpg, but only with the help of 126 hp. It also has much better torque (155 lb/ft) than the Corolla (122 lb/ft). Suddenly, the Corolla has the engine that is inefficient...

34mpg highway is equal to a 3500lb I-4 Camry making almost 200hp, do you realize that? The Corolla does see 38mpg highway, yes, but it also gets 30mpg city, which is much better than the 24mpg city that the Cobalt is rated at. As for hp/tq ratings, they difference is negligable since the Cobalt is a bit heavier than the Corolla.

Are you seeing a trend here yet? GM is behind the pack nearly every step of the way. To say that they couldn't benefit from an alliance with Toyota, at this point, just seems like another way to bash them.

As for the comment about the Corvette, we know you're jealous of the $65,000 car, one that just happens to lap the Nurinburgring in under 7:45, and the 3.7 sec 0-60 times, all with that "antique" pushrod V8 that happens to get 26 mpg while making 505 hp, and that leaf spring suspension, which happens to beat Porsches and Ferraris all day long. We know that you've spent too much time in that ugly Camry, commuting to McDonald's...

Haha yes, I'm terribly jealous. There's nothing wrong with the LS7, no, but you seem to have missed my point entirely. I wasn't bashing the LS7, just the notion that somehow the LS7 is superior to powerplant(s) that we know nothing about.

As for leaf springs and track times? An Ariel Atom will beat a vette around a track, but that certainly doesn't make it a better car in any way shape or form aside from a set of numbers that really don't mean much to anyone. The Z06 is a beautiful car, but it's not perfect in any way shape or form. I'd rather not sacrifice a decent ride and interior for a slight bit of speed that I'll never use, but that's just me.

And lastly, hybrids. GM is the leader here, not Toyota anymore. Starting in a month or two, 3 hybrid systems are coming out. One is the very inexpensive, but thrifty BAS system (which eliminates $2500 of Toyota's $4500 premium). The second is the 2Mode, which optimizes highway efficiency (unlike Toyota's system, which only provides power while passing), and the ZeroMode, which will be a full hybrid that can be plugged in, and used as electric-only at the driver's command.

Who stands to gain here? Toyota, anyone?

Starting in a month or two huh?

Wher is GM's competitor to the Prius? The hybrid Camry? The GS450h? The RX350h? The Highlander hybrid? The LS600hL?

Like I said before, GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, and loses virtually nothing.

[Butz]

Originally Posted by mikesright

REAALLY GRUMBLES!

You prove your stupidity everyday. GM's small-block has been on top for over 50 years. That's proof that the LS2, LS4, LS7, and LS9, as well as the numerous truck variations, are and will continue to lead the pack. Nobody does the hp numbers better than the small-block, and the package can't be as compact and lightweight as the low-profile aluminum block PUSH-ROD small-block found in your GM vehicles. Toyota still can't find the efficiency, or how to produce Active Fuel Management in their V8's. I wonder why the engines haven't been unveiled yet?

GM's new HF V6 is getting DI for 2007. Expect better fuel economy and 280+ hp from all engines. It's an improvement Toyota can't make to it's engines, because they have already gotten it, and the HF V6 is already making 267 hp without it! They (Toyota) will really need help there!

The Ecotec is one of the most efficient engines in its class, making 145 hp in the Cobalt, while getting 34 mpg hwy, while the Corolla gets 38 mpg, but only with the help of 126 hp. It also has much better torque (155 lb/ft) than the Corolla (122 lb/ft). Suddenly, the Corolla has the engine that is inefficient...

As for the comment about the Corvette, we know you're jealous of the $65,000 car, one that just happens to lap the Nurinburgring in under 7:45, and the 3.7 sec 0-60 times, all with that "antique" pushrod V8 that happens to get 26 mpg while making 505 hp, and that leaf spring suspension, which happens to beat Porsches and Ferraris all day long. We know that you've spent too much time in that ugly Camry, commuting to McDonald's...

And lastly, hybrids. GM is the leader here, not Toyota anymore. Starting in a month or two, 3 hybrid systems are coming out. One is the very inexpensive, but thrifty BAS system (which eliminates $2500 of Toyota's $4500 premium). The second is the 2Mode, which optimizes highway efficiency (unlike Toyota's system, which only provides power while passing), and the ZeroMode, which will be a full hybrid that can be plugged in, and used as electric-only at the driver's command.

Who stands to gain here? Toyota, anyone?

Wow! Very well put, all the facts are spot on. A great reply indeed

Let grumbles grymble his Toyota-Kool Aid, dreaming about the day the American auto-industry is made up of Toyota, Nissan and Honda, because God willing it will never happen !

[elderon]

Excellent article. Some very good points in there. I sure hope GM pulls it together alone.

[prototype66]

Originally Posted by grumbles

You know what, you're right.

Toyota would do away with all of GM's ancient technology, and rightfully so, which is why I'd love to see a GM/Toyota alliance.


I love this, I absolutely love it. You are somehow convined that GM's current pushrod powerplants and their current platforms are somehow superior to those of Toyota, and you compare them to powerplants and platforms that haven't even been released or reviewed yet. The V8 in the LS460/LS600hL/IS500/whatever else is brand new, we have virtually no info on it, yet it is all of a sudden inferoir to the LS7 or whatever else.

Why is this? Why is it inferior? How do you know? Where did you get your information? Did a Toyota engineer confess to you how awesomely incredible GM's powerplants are, and how inferior Toyotas are?

What about the platforms? Did you somehow attain specs of the new Lexus LF-A's (the high-revving v10 supercar that's been tearing around the nurburgerking, for those who dont know) platform, and figure out that it was superior to the Corvette, leaf springs and all?

GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, as there's a lot of things they clearly aren't capable of, that Toyota is.

First, building a fuel-efficient 4cyl powerplant for it's lower-end vehicles. The ecotec is easily the least efficient engine in it's class, hell, the Vibe gets better mileage than almost any other GM vehicle.

Second, building a fuel-efficient high-tech 6cyl ohc for everything else. The 3.5 V6 Toyota has had in the IS350, Avalon, Camry, and a few other vehicles for a few years tops the brand new GM V6 going into the Aura and other vehicles, not only in hp/tq ratings, but in fuel efficiency also.

Third, hybrid systems. Toyota is undoubtedly the leader here, with more hybrid vehicles now and in the future than anyone else, and GM could stand to benefit greatly from Toyota in this area.

GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, and lose almost nothing with any sort of material worth.

What can GM do alone? They can be second, third, fourth, fifth best, but they will never be at the top again without some sort of help.

(Edit by Ming - See my reply, and watch the cursing)

Have some more kool aid . Arrogence is always the reason for the downfall of a nation. History proves that. And so do recalls.(we all know the big T NEEEVER has those!)