There's no G.M. In "Alliance"

[WorldisNotFlat]

I believe GM should go for it and come out stronger than ever before. I can see some very positive signs.

As I have said before, Americans need to know that our products and services are not given a fair chance in Asia or Europe. Why do we continue to buy foreign products while we suffer that kind of treatment? Global competition is a great thing as long as it is equitable.

[ChevroletRevived]

Another great article. And I agree. GM can do this thing...alone.

[grumbles]

You know what, you're right.

Toyota would do away with all of GM's ancient technology, and rightfully so, which is why I'd love to see a GM/Toyota alliance.

And before we point to GM's class-leading large SUVs as being what the alliance partners would go after, look at the efforts Nissan and Toyota have both poured in to large pickups and SUVs of late. Do you honestly think that they would abandon their own engineered product to replace or supplement their product line with GM's trucks powered by "ancient" Pushrod technology?

Or the Corvette....

I love this, I absolutely love it. You are somehow convined that GM's current pushrod powerplants and their current platforms are somehow superior to those of Toyota, and you compare them to powerplants and platforms that haven't even been released or reviewed yet. The V8 in the LS460/LS600hL/IS500/whatever else is brand new, we have virtually no info on it, yet it is all of a sudden inferoir to the LS7 or whatever else.

Why is this? Why is it inferior? How do you know? Where did you get your information? Did a Toyota engineer confess to you how awesomely incredible GM's powerplants are, and how inferior Toyotas are?

What about the platforms? Did you somehow attain specs of the new Lexus LF-A's (the high-revving v10 supercar that's been tearing around the nurburgerking, for those who dont know) platform, and figure out that it was superior to the Corvette, leaf springs and all?

GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, as there's a lot of things they clearly aren't capable of, that Toyota is.

First, building a fuel-efficient 4cyl powerplant for it's lower-end vehicles. The ecotec is easily the least efficient engine in it's class, hell, the Vibe gets better mileage than almost any other GM vehicle.

Second, building a fuel-efficient high-tech 6cyl ohc for everything else. The 3.5 V6 Toyota has had in the IS350, Avalon, Camry, and a few other vehicles for a few years tops the brand new GM V6 going into the Aura and other vehicles, not only in hp/tq ratings, but in fuel efficiency also.

Third, hybrid systems. Toyota is undoubtedly the leader here, with more hybrid vehicles now and in the future than anyone else, and GM could stand to benefit greatly from Toyota in this area.

GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, and lose almost nothing with any sort of material worth.

What can GM do alone? They can be second, third, fourth, fifth best, but they will never be at the top again without some sort of help.

(Edit by Ming - See my reply, and watch the cursing)

[jwrebholz]

Confidence is one thing, arrogance is another level entirely.

Confidence is saying "I believe I can do this!" Arrogance is saying "Nobody else can do this as well as me!"

[ChevroletRevived]

Originally Posted by jwrebholz

Confidence is one thing, arrogance is another level entirely.

Confidence is saying "I believe I can do this!" Arrogance is saying "Nobody else can do this as well as me!"

You hit the nail on the head! Confidence and arrogance are 2 different things entirely. Toyota isn't only confident, they're downright arrogant! You can just feel it.

[igor]

^^^Grumbles..

take a chill pill..

Ming expressed his opinion, and while you have all the right of an American to complain your head off, you could possibly tone yourself down a bit and be poile about it - Ming was.

My view - toyota is a pile of arrogant horsecrap trying to cheat their way to any numbers possible - they are auto-industry equivalent of US Public schools - studying for the test (Hp, MPG , JDP etc), but being completely useless at actually being good cars.

Even the Hyrid hype is expriment in shortcuts ... let's just say that a 1.9l Diesel Saab 9.3 get's 40mpg reliably ... so much for the awesome power of technology from Toyota.

I understand Ming's perspective .. we buy brands because we perceive them more than a meaningless symbol on the hood. Ford and Honda have always lead the way in rear suspension designs. toyota was always the vanilla in the sky, and GM - well unforntunately, was since the 80's trying to out vanilla Toyota .. but there is so much more about the way we see cars. And only Toyota and its fans see no value in any other technology than toyota's own.

I am a Ford guy - and I know for a fact there is no better handling small FWD car than the C1 triplets (e.g. Mazda3). but I know ther eare some things Honda does well - their high-revving 4bangers are nice counterpart to the torquey 4bangers Ford(Mazda) produce. I also see other products that inspire me to anticipae how my favorite brands will respond..

I rarely see that among toyota fans. Coupling an inefficient powertrain with inefficient means of recouping power is somehow god's gift to earth... well I disagree...

Igor

[igor]

Originally Posted by jwrebholz

Confidence is one thing, arrogance is another level entirely.

Confidence is saying "I believe I can do this!" Arrogance is saying "Nobody else can do this as well as me!"

perfectly worded ...

Igor

[Ming]

I think you guys, Grumbles, FreeEnergy etc. are taking what I wrote a bit too far and getting carried away.

su·pe·ri·or

* Of great value or excellence; extraordinary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/superior

This is the meaning I was shooting for, not "superior to". Since it was misinterpreted, I'll change it to something that is easier to grasp and not easily confused, like "extraordinary".

In no way was I dissing the hybrid powertrain. My point was, why would Toyota "take a step back" in their minds, when they have their own engines and their own strategy ("Moving forward") that a Chevy smallblock would be out of place in...regardless of how good an engine it might be?

Originally Posted by grumbles

You know what, you're right.

Toyota would do away with all of GM's ancient technology, and rightfully so, which is why I'd love to see a GM/Toyota alliance.

Precisely why I don't want it to happen. At least a Toyota fan like you can be honest in saying you have no respect or concern for GM's Detroit-(or otherwise)based engineering, and would love to see it go.

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by grumbles

You know what, you're right.

Toyota would do away with all of GM's ancient technology, and rightfully so, which is why I'd love to see a GM/Toyota alliance.


I love this, I absolutely love it. You are somehow convined that GM's current pushrod powerplants and their current platforms are somehow superior to those of Toyota, and you compare them to powerplants and platforms that haven't even been released or reviewed yet. The V8 in the LS460/LS600hL/IS500/whatever else is brand new, we have virtually no info on it, yet it is all of a sudden inferoir to the LS7 or whatever else.

Why is this? Why is it inferior? How do you know? Where did you get your information? Did a Toyota engineer confess to you how awesomely incredible GM's powerplants are, and how inferior Toyotas are?

What about the platforms? Did you somehow attain specs of the new Lexus LF-A's (the high-revving v10 supercar that's been tearing around the nurburgerking, for those who dont know) platform, and figure out that it was superior to the Corvette, leaf springs and all?

GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, as there's a lot of things they clearly aren't capable of, that Toyota is.

First, building a fuel-efficient 4cyl powerplant for it's lower-end vehicles. The ecotec is easily the least efficient engine in it's class, hell, the Vibe gets better mileage than almost any other GM vehicle.

Second, building a fuel-efficient high-tech 6cyl ohc for everything else. The 3.5 V6 Toyota has had in the IS350, Avalon, Camry, and a few other vehicles for a few years tops the brand new GM V6 going into the Aura and other vehicles, not only in hp/tq ratings, but in fuel efficiency also.

Third, hybrid systems. Toyota is undoubtedly the leader here, with more hybrid vehicles now and in the future than anyone else, and GM could stand to benefit greatly from Toyota in this area.

GM stands to gain a whole hell of a lot, and lose almost nothing with any sort of material worth.

What can GM do alone? They can be second, third, fourth, fifth best, but they will never be at the top again without some sort of help.

(Edit by Ming - See my reply, and watch the cursing)

I Agree with this. Imanging how massive the company would be if they merged!

[J..D]

Well I disagree with grumbles he is a Toyota lover who has no faith in GM.

[asim]

Great write up Ming, you raise several good points in this article. Product engineering would go to hell, since a company like Toyota or Nissan already makes "better" cars than GM's.

Also, you're right, there is no GM in alliance.

[Ty_99]

First off Great write up Ming.
Why is it so many people want to see GM taken over by a foreign company? Where does this hatred come from? Like come on. OK some of GM's technology is a bit old school, but u know what it is proven, and it can't be that useless as u all think if they are still using it. Biggest reason GM hasn't had to go to a 5 or 6 spd tranny is cause their engines actually have the freakin torque to move the car and doesn't have a narrow powerband. Honda's u have the rev the hell out of it to get it to go anywhere, and well last I checked the higher u reved the more fuel u burn. GM doesn't need to go with anyone. I just wish people would get the head out of their asses and start to realize Import isn't always better. If I didn't give a $hit about cars and what not, I would probably drive a f'n Toyota, but I actually like to drive and well a Toyota is too freakin Boring.
I will be GM'er for Life if they keep it alone. Cause in my eyes they have what it takes to be the best in every category and actually have some flare. Something Toyota could learn to do again.

[1931Chevy]

NISSAN AND TOYOTA ARE ONLY GOING FOR THE GM NAME AND THE FANBASE, imagine the 2014 toyota corvette

[grumbles]

Eh sorry about the cursing. I didn't know the filter was off, I just expected it to be filtered out.

[EcL1pZ]

Great write up..

GM, and its brands are all about American Heritage.. why would we want a foreign company to merge and or buy it out? (refering to the toyota/gm talks) .. regarding Nissian.. the only reason GM jumped for the ocasion was it might help them out of debt but I don't think GM is going to do something stupid with a setup that would compromise their recovery...