Saturn: The Amazing Brand

[Elk]

Originally Posted by plane

This is apparently a hot button issue with you.
No one else would bring out the Fiero as an example of a competitive small car - it was the car that they finally got right the last year it was made.
We can explore that elsewhere. The litany of Fiero problems is certainly outside the scope of this discussion.

You completely missed the point. I’m not comparing the Fiero to Saturn’s cars (you can’t they were two completely different vehicles). You made the point that “only with Saturn could GM change the way they do things”. I’m pointing out that the that GM had already had changed the way they do things with Pontiac.

Originally Posted by plane

In fact, Elk, you've just been promoted to CEO of General Motors (I swear it's the truth).
What's the plan?
What are you going to do to return GM to sustained profitability?

Easy kill plans to import the Astra it’s to going lose money and sales. Take the Cobalt put a new grill on it that becomes the new ION (which will still be a major improvement over what they are selling now). This add about 100,000 units to the production at Lordstown meaning the plant will be running a 3th shift which means zero down time. This will increase the profit margin on all the cars built there.

Originally Posted by cdp326

Even in the late 90s when money wasn't going to Saturn?

I already explained this GM spent 5 billion to launch Saturn. It’s cost about 1 billion to come up with a all new car. Assuming GM replace their compact at the same rate as Toyota (about every 7 years) 5 billion adds up to 35 years of new cars. Saturn didn’t just use up GM compact car money for 1990 they use up 5 generations of compact car money.

Originally Posted by cdp326

Saturn has less dealers, and the ION was met with bad reviews from day one. It never had the chance. It was the guinea pig for the Cobalt.
Anything that was complained about on the ION was changed for the Cobalt. The ION was noisy, had bad transmissions, small seats, etc. The Cobalt had QuietSteel, a reliable 4 speed auto, more substantial seats, etc....all improvements that the ION got, but the damage was done.

My argument was that the people that were done with American cars wouldn't go back to the brands they'd gotten those experiences from, which is where the new Saturn brand comes from.

So let me make sure I understand what you’re saying. Saturn is better the Chevy because people haven’t had a bad experience with Saturn, but the Cobalt out sells the ION because people have had a bad experience with the ION.

Look you can have it both way. You can’t say Chevy’s just won’t sell because they are too American, then say the Cobalt out sold the ION because it’s a better car and that people haven’t had a bad experience with Saturn.

The fact that the Cobalt sells better then the ION shows people are willing to buy Chevy’s. And if the ION has a damaged image then that means Saturn has a damaged image.

Originally Posted by cdp326

You're too bitter that GM didn't give a flip in the compact car segment and let the J-bodies sit by. GM wouldn't have done much differently with the J-bodies regardless of Saturn's existence. That money would have just gone elsewhere.
The fact is, after Saturn was started, GM didn't sink any more money into Saturn, and they were left to fend for themselves.
Saturn wanted to introduce their redesigned models for 1995. However, they had so little money they could only afford to introduce the redesigned dashboard that year! The redesigned sedan and wagon came for 1996, and the coupe still didn't come until 1997. No, GM didn't sink any more money into Saturn.

GM did sink money into Saturn after they started it. If they had been left to fend for them self’s they would have run out of money and would have had to shut down the plant is 1996 or 1997.

Originally Posted by Jonnycat26

The J-Body Sunbird originally came with a 1.8L SOHC engine. GM switched it to the OHV I4 later on

Yeah I know, but I figure I’d keep it simple and just stick to the main engine the J-bodys came with. Now that you brought it up I might as well get into it.

Before Saturn came a long and took all the compact car development money GM did actually try to keep the J-bodys fresh. There was even a turbo version of the Sunbird back in the 80's.

[cdp326]

Originally Posted by Elk

Easy kill plans to import the Astra it’s to going lose money and sales. Take the Cobalt put a new grill on it that becomes the new ION (which will still be a major improvement over what they are selling now). This add about 100,000 units to the production at Lordstown meaning the plant will be running a 3th shift which means zero down time. This will increase the profit margin on all the cars built there.

I hope you're joking, as that's probably one of the worst ideas I've heard on this site.

So let me make sure I understand what you’re saying. Saturn is better the Chevy because people haven’t had a bad experience with Saturn, but the Cobalt out sells the ION because people have had a bad experience with the ION.

Look you can have it both way. You can’t say Chevy’s just won’t sell because they are too American, then say the Cobalt out sold the ION because it’s a better car and that people haven’t had a bad experience with Saturn.

The fact that the Cobalt sells better then the ION shows people are willing to buy Chevy’s. And if the ION has a damaged image then that means Saturn has a damaged image.

No, you're manipulating what I said.
The ION and Cobalt are a different story.
The ION debuted to poor reviews. The Cobalt had fairly good reviews (contrary to popular belief).
The ION is too large for its segment (184.5-185"). The Cobalt, at about 5" shorter, is not.

The Chevy image was the reason for Saturn in 1990. Nowadays, they both have a bad image, and are in it together.
That said, the Cobalt has the advantage of a larger number of dealers and a much better review quality. The ION's problems were largely done by Saturn's designers back when they designed it.

I can't understand what you're saying that you think I'm saying.
What I was saying was that the idea of Saturn was to bring back buyers of imports that had been chased away from domestic cars.
You're trying to say that I'm saying that that applies now. It doesn't.
I was NOT trying to say that Chevrolets wouldn't sell because they're American, then or now. Don't put words in my posts.

I never said that Chevys wouldn't sell better.
I don't know if I ever specified the Cobalt and ION until now. Cobalt and ION don't equal Cavalier and S-Series. Cobalt sales are higher than the ION, but that's because of the above reasons. Had the ION been less weird in its intro year, it would have done better all along.

Again, I've never said people wouldn't buy Chevys. Somehow, you think the philosophy from 1990 is exactly the same now.

The problem was that people were turning away from American-brand cars (even if you put a Chevy badge on a Corolla, it didn't matter). Not everyone was, but import brands were eroding the sales of domestics.
People would still buy Chevys. If you're going to nitpick like this, I hope you call out anybody that sells the Pontiac Aztek didn't sell anything.

You just don't understand.

GM did sink money into Saturn after they started it. If they had been left to fend for them self’s they would have run out of money and would have had to shut down the plant is 1996 or 1997.

They sunk next to nothing into Saturn, I promise you. Only enough to string Saturn along some. How about this: they had to mostly fend for themselves. Better?

[Elk]

Originally Posted by cdp326

I hope you're joking, as that's probably one of the worst ideas I've heard on this site.

I am being 100% serious. plane asked me how as CEO I would return GM to sustained profitability. I give him a clear answer.

The Astra is going to lose money and sales will be limited to 40,000 max (because the more cars GM imports the more money they lose and they are only willing to lose so much). It’s a money and market share losing idea that’s not even good for Saturn dealers.

A rebadge Cobalt would give Saturn a car that’s better then the ION, is profitable and can be sold in the same numbers. And call me odd, but I think selling lots of cars that are made in America and make money is the best way for GM to fight the imports.

Originally Posted by cdp326

The Chevy image was the reason for Saturn in 1990. Nowadays, they both have a bad image, and are in it together.

Cavalier sales were actually good in the 80's. Sales didn’t start to drop off until 1993 and that wasn’t because of a bad image. It was because the car had gone basically unchanged since 1982 and it was getting sales taken away by Saturn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Cavalier

Had GM come out with an all new Cavalier in 1990 it would have held on to it’s 300,000+ a year sales numbers.

Originally Posted by cdp326

They sunk next to nothing into Saturn, I promise you. Only enough to string Saturn along some. How about this: they had to mostly fend for themselves. Better?

Yes.

[Saturn69]

Let's get rid of every brand but Chevy. While we're at it we'll narrow everything down to one brand. Tide, Crest, Levi's, Nike, Polo, Heinz, Kraft...they can stay. All other detergents, shoes, jeans, shirts, catsups, cheeses....they have to go. People don't like choices, especially when all the products are fundamentally the same thing, only the advertising actually sets them apart since we are too simpleminded to realize there really aren't any differences between them. Arguing about killing Saturn, which may not sell as much as Chevy but sells nonetheless, is stupid. It's like some personal vendetta against a marketing program. It's not even about the cars, it's about where you perceive, if you do at all, of where Saturn fits. What a thing to waste posts on.

You don't like Saturn? Fine, don't buy one. Buy the Chevy, buy the Buick, that's okay. But, don't try to justify the elimination of choices in the auto world. It's amazing. Instead of ignoring what we don't like, or avoiding it, we try to eliminate its existence. Saturn, Scion, gays, Liberals, Brussels sprouts....it doesn't matter. If we don't like it, it has to go. Why is that? Isn't it enough to just not buy the stupid car? You have to have the whole division eliminated, all those people without jobs, take away the choice or preference of other people simply because you can't justify the purchase of it for yourself? How selfish are we? Grow up.

[CrunkedRL]

Originally Posted by Elk

I am being 100% serious. plane asked me how as CEO I would return GM to sustained profitability. I give him a clear answer.

The Astra is going to lose money and sales will be limited to 40,000 max (because the more cars GM imports the more money they lose and they are only willing to lose so much). It’s a money and market share losing idea that’s not even good for Saturn dealers.

A rebadge Cobalt would give Saturn a car that’s better then the ION, is profitable and can be sold in the same numbers. And call me odd, but I think selling lots of cars that are made in America and make money is the best way for GM to fight the imports.

IMO a rebadged Cobalt maybe better than the outgoing Ion, but the Cobalt is fastly becoming outdated with not a MCE insight. A Saturn Cobalt clone would not be able to sustain itself against, the new Sentra, Elantra, and upcoming Carolla which in turn would still cause GM to lose profit. I feel GM should look at foreign competition, find out what there doing and figure out a way to do it better. I don't believe GM should have two identical products competiting in the exact same market. The Astra's main competitors will be the Golf/Rabbit, and Mazda3. Cobalt's main competition has been the Carolla, Sentra, Focus, and Elantra. Both the Cobalt and Astra are important in GM's lineup and both IMO should work to compete in different segments as opposed to canabalizing sells through competing in only one segment.

GM for a long time has been using their internal brands as the benchmark for how well they should improve upon their cars. However, if the internal brands are not up to the same standards as the competition it will only cause the disease of inferiority to be passed from one brand to another. I think GM is doing the right thing in bringing over the Astra and I think it will be well received by the public. Most people I speak to who are not car enthusiasts still believes Saturn is not apart of GM corporate. Some believe that Saturns are foreign and therefore better than most other American made products. IMO this perception along a totally revamped European style can help carry Saturn to the next level.

[Jesda]

What is "profit share". Its kind of a neat phrase.

[cdp326]

Originally Posted by Elk

I am being 100% serious. plane asked me how as CEO I would return GM to sustained profitability. I give him a clear answer.

The Astra is going to lose money and sales will be limited to 40,000 max (because the more cars GM imports the more money they lose and they are only willing to lose so much). It’s a money and market share losing idea that’s not even good for Saturn dealers.

Sales will also be limited by the hatchback bodystyles. I do wonder what they'll expect to sell when they add more bodystyles and begin manufacturing them in the US.

A rebadge Cobalt would give Saturn a car that’s better then the ION, is profitable and can be sold in the same numbers. And call me odd, but I think selling lots of cars that are made in America and make money is the best way for GM to fight the imports.

I don't disagree with the last sentence, but if you think that rebadges would be the answer to reviving GM, perhaps it explains a lot why you don't like Saturn.
If rebadges are such a great idea, why isn't everyone hear throwing parties for the Pontiac G5?
The ION has two nice advantages over the Cobalt: the polymer panels and the coupe's rear access doors. I still think the Cobalt a better car, but those are very nice features (the rear access doors are more important; I hope they continue these on future products).
A rebadged Cobalt would alienate a lot of fans of both GM and Saturn as well.

Cavalier sales were actually good in the 80's. Sales didn’t start to drop off until 1993 and that wasn’t because of a bad image. It was because the car had gone basically unchanged since 1982 and it was getting sales taken away by Saturn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Cavalier

Had GM come out with an all new Cavalier in 1990 it would have held on to it’s 300,000+ a year sales numbers.

I didn't say sales were bad. Even if sales are good, it doesn't mean everything else is good.
There is much more to the Cavalier's sales drop off around '93 than Saturn. The new, more aerodynamic Civic and Corolla came out in '92 and '93, IIRC. Both appeared much more modern, especially considering they had standard driver's airbags (something the Cavalier didn't get until 1995). The Cavalier's design at the time was from a facelift around '88 (can't remember the exact year). Which do you think looked more modern in the public's eye?

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

You don't like Saturn? Fine, don't buy one. Buy the Chevy, buy the Buick, that's okay. But, don't try to justify the elimination of choices in the auto world. It's amazing. Instead of ignoring what we don't like, or avoiding it, we try to eliminate its existence. Saturn, Scion, gays, Liberals, Brussels sprouts....it doesn't matter. If we don't like it, it has to go. Why is that? Isn't it enough to just not buy the stupid car? You have to have the whole division eliminated, all those people without jobs, take away the choice or preference of other people simply because you can't justify the purchase of it for yourself? How selfish are we? Grow up.

This isn’t about eliminating options, this is about making money. Almost everyone on here seems to be happy when UAW workers lose their jobs to Mexicans so GM can make more money, but when I say GM should stop losing money on Saturn I’m being “selfish”.

You brought up Scion. Let’s look at Scion. When Toyota launch Scion they didn’t spend billions starting a whole new brand from scratch limited by a small Scion only dealer network. They just added Scion signs to the Toyota dealers and had them sell Scions under a different pricing policy. And as a result Scion makes money. Had Saturn been launch the same way (just adding a sign to Chevy dealers) they would have made money and I wouldn’t be arguing for their elimination.

Originally Posted by CrunkedRL

IMO a rebadged Cobalt maybe better than the outgoing Ion, but the Cobalt is fastly becoming outdated with not a MCE insight. A Saturn Cobalt clone would not be able to sustain itself against, the new Sentra, Elantra, and upcoming Carolla which in turn would still cause GM to lose profit. I feel GM should look at foreign competition, find out what there doing and figure out a way to do it better. I don't believe GM should have two identical products competiting in the exact same market. The Astra's main competitors will be the Golf/Rabbit, and Mazda3. Cobalt's main competition has been the Carolla, Sentra, Focus, and Elantra. Both the Cobalt and Astra are important in GM's lineup and both IMO should work to compete in different segments as opposed to canabalizing sells through competing in only one segment.

It doesn’t matter if the Astra is going to go after a different market. It’s going to lose sales and money. Which will push the Cobalt’s MCE back even farther.

By giving Saturn a rebadged Cobalt GM will make money and they can use that money to build a better Cobalt. Which in turn will mean the Pontiac and Saturn versions of the car will improve.

Originally Posted by cdp326

I don't disagree with the last sentence, but if you think that rebadges would be the answer to reviving GM, perhaps it explains a lot why you don't like Saturn.
If rebadges are such a great idea, why isn't everyone hear throwing parties for the Pontiac G5?
The ION has two nice advantages over the Cobalt: the polymer panels and the coupe's rear access doors. I still think the Cobalt a better car, but those are very nice features (the rear access doors are more important; I hope they continue these on future products).
A rebadged Cobalt would alienate a lot of fans of both GM and Saturn as well.

Giving Saturn a Cobalt rebadge isn’t a “great idea”, it’s the only option to deal with GM messed-up compact car game plan in a way that will make it constantly profitable.
And if you think a Cobalt rebadge is going to alienate Saturn buyers what do you think is going to happen when a Saturn buyer goes into a dealer looking for a value priced coupe or sedan only to find out that Saturn now only sells premium priced hatchbacks?

Originally Posted by cdp326

I didn't say sales were bad. Even if sales are good, it doesn't mean everything else is good.
There is much more to the Cavalier's sales drop off around '93 than Saturn. The new, more aerodynamic Civic and Corolla came out in '92 and '93, IIRC. Both appeared much more modern, especially considering they had standard driver's airbags (something the Cavalier didn't get until 1995). The Cavalier's design at the time was from a facelift around '88 (can't remember the exact year). Which do you think looked more modern in the public's eye?

Yes the Cavalier stopped selling good because it was getting old. That’s my point if GM had redone the Cavalier instead for creating Saturn. The Cavalier sales wouldn’t have dropped-off.

[JBsZ06]

Consider Saturn as the "big picture adventure"

Create a brand that import buyers would consider.

One where the shopping experience was pleasant and inviting.

Where the sales consultants were consultants and not sales people..

That venture at the time required unique vehicles to validate the experiment.

Now the experiement proved successful and it was just the product that was somewhat lacking..

Hence the Opel connection in 2007.

Makes perfect sense.

Saturn has one of the finest new lineups in the entire industry.

I'd be proud to own any of its new offering.

Too bad they don't take GM card credit points like the other GM divisions...

GM hooked me on that experiment too..

[cdp326]

Originally Posted by Elk

You brought up Scion. Let’s look at Scion. When Toyota launch Scion they didn’t spend billions starting a whole new brand from scratch limited by a small Scion only dealer network. They just added Scion signs to the Toyota dealers and had them sell Scions under a different pricing policy. And as a result Scion makes money. Had Saturn been launch the same way (just adding a sign to Chevy dealers) they would have made money and I wouldn’t be arguing for their elimination.

They did do that--it was the GEO brand.
They could have done that, but then people would realize the connection to GM, and people wouldn't have entered the dealer. The point of Saturn was to lure in import car buyers--people that otherwise wouldn't buy an American brand car. They made a new brand name and stuck it on a Corolla for Geo, but that never sold well, did it?

By giving Saturn a rebadged Cobalt GM will make money and they can use that money to build a better Cobalt. Which in turn will mean the Pontiac and Saturn versions of the car will improve.

I'm sure that was the rationale behind the wildly successful Saturn Relay, too.

Giving Saturn a Cobalt rebadge isn’t a “great idea”, it’s the only option to deal with GM messed-up compact car game plan in a way that will make it constantly profitable.

Rebadges are NOT the answer!!!! WTF do you think got GM in this mess in the first place?
The Cobalt is an good little car, but it needs to improve before we start passing it around. It's not perfect, and it's not a class leader.
A rebadged Cobalt would be terrible for Saturn, period. There are more Chevy dealers than Saturn dealers anyway, and if the Chevy dealer is closer (as it would be most of the time) then people would just go to the Chevy dealer if it's the same thing.

And if you think a Cobalt rebadge is going to alienate Saturn buyers what do you think is going to happen when a Saturn buyer goes into a dealer looking for a value priced coupe or sedan only to find out that Saturn now only sells premium priced hatchbacks?

Some people are already alienated because they dropped polymer.
Saturn won't be "premium priced."