Saturn: The Amazing Brand

[grumbles]

Originally Posted by nsap

Obviously my point didn't get across.

Your point was that they went from crap to average or above average. Their product line, as of today, is still nothing spectacular, and is actually quite small compared to other major nameplates. It's great to see Saturn is doing well, but they certainly aren't leading the industry by any measure.

Many are saying Saturn is one of the hottest and most desireable brands on the market. Says who? Saturn is more of a niche brand to me, like guitarlix stated earlier.

[nsap]

Originally Posted by grumbles

Your point was that they went from crap to average or above average. Their product line, as of today, is still nothing spectacular, and is actually quite small compared to other major nameplates. It's great to see Saturn is doing well, but they certainly aren't leading the industry by any measure.

Many are saying Saturn is one of the hottest and most desireable brands on the market. Says who? Saturn is more of a niche brand to me, like guitarlix stated earlier.

My point was how quickly it happened, not what happened. Jeez, do I need to draw a picture for some of you?

Saturn is a niche brand right now, but it's future is not niche. Cadillac, Chevrolet, and Saturn are the new high-volumes at GM. Like it or not.

[ciciusss]

Originally Posted by guitarlix

Who disputed that? Did you even read my post? I've been repeating the same thing here since day one. The problem isn't with Saturn's products anymore, the problem lies with the brand itself. The products are solid, however that may not be enough. Saturn is a fringe brand. For someone who's really into GM, this may be hard to comprehend since you're constantly discussing Saturn products. But from my perspective and from what I've seen, Saturn isn't really high on too many people's shopping lists. Saturn's existing consumers may want to move up to another Saturn, but for other people, brands like Chevrolet, Pontiac, Toyota, Ford, Honda are still way more important. Saturn to me is like Suzuki or Mitsubishi. All these brands now have extremely nice products and some like Suzuki offer a lot more for a lot less money and a super long warranty to boot. But still no one wants one. People want the established big brands. GM's problems are compounded by the fact that for years, Saturn was a bottom of the food chain brand, then all of a sudden, they reversed directions and decided to go in the exact opposite direction. For many people, Saturn is still a non-existent brand in their minds. I think Saturn as a brand was a mistake to begin with, and in a way, it continues to be. There was no need to start a new brand to achieve what GM set out to do with Saturn. They already had plenty of brands at that point.

Saturn has some really solid products now. I'm most impressed by the Sky and the Outlook. I'm not at all impressed by the COTY (which I spent quite a bit of time checking out yesterday). Don't get me wrong, the Aura is a great car, but it does nothing particularly impressive to set it apart from the competition. I believe that Saturn's new (mostly) impressive products should have gone to other existing more "stronger" brands like Chevy or Pontiac. I don't see a point to this brand at all. If you're all about sales numbers (quantity), maybe it makes sense, but to me it doesn't. I'm going to withdraw from this thread now as I'm sure that (as in the past), people are going to jump at me and I hate arguing forever.

Guitarlix,

Some of the things you said about Saturn being a "fringe" brand and that their products are not on too many people's shopping list is the same thing that could have been said about Hyundai several years ago.

GM decided to invest in Saturn because among the GM brands they have the least amount of baggage and their image can be turned around much more quickly (remember Lutz's comment about Pontiac and Buick being damaged brands). Also, according to GM 70% of the people who purchased a Saturn would have chosen an import car had they not purchased a Saturn. In other words, these people were not going to go to Pontiac, Chevrolet or Buick to purchase a car. They were headed over to a Toyota, Honda, Nissan or Hyundai dealership. Plus, Saturn has a good bit of goodwill built up because of their customer service relations. Saturn now has a good product line. This is not going to be turned around in a short period of time, but GM is looking for steady growth from this brand.

And you just brought up the Saturn Aura. Funny, I spent some time in a Aura and 07 Accord yesterday. You write that the Aura is a very good car, but it does not set itself apart from the competition in any particular way. Well, the same could be said of all the mainstream midsize cars in this category. Does an Accord handle that much better to separate it from a Ford Fusion or Aura? No. Is the ride in the Toyota Camry that much better or quieter than some other cars in this category? Not really.

I think Karl Brauer, the editor in chief of Edmunds had it right when he said you could place the Accord, Altima, Aura, Camry and Fusion on a board, throw a dart and whichever one the dart hit you were guaranteed to get a very good midsize car. I have not driven the Altima, but I have driven the others a fair bit and anyone interested in one of these cars, a case could be made for any of them.

[Havasavana]

Originally Posted by guitarlix

Who disputed that? Did you even read my post? I've been repeating the same thing here since day one. The problem isn't with Saturn's products anymore, the problem lies with the brand itself. The products are solid, however that may not be enough. Saturn is a fringe brand. For someone who's really into GM, this may be hard to comprehend since you're constantly discussing Saturn products. But from my perspective and from what I've seen, Saturn isn't really high on too many people's shopping lists. Saturn's existing consumers may want to move up to another Saturn, but for other people, brands like Chevrolet, Pontiac, Toyota, Ford, Honda are still way more important. Saturn to me is like Suzuki or Mitsubishi. All these brands now have extremely nice products and some like Suzuki offer a lot more for a lot less money and a super long warranty to boot. But still no one wants one. People want the established big brands. GM's problems are compounded by the fact that for years, Saturn was a bottom of the food chain brand, then all of a sudden, they reversed directions and decided to go in the exact opposite direction. For many people, Saturn is still a non-existent brand in their minds. I think Saturn as a brand was a mistake to begin with, and in a way, it continues to be. There was no need to start a new brand to achieve what GM set out to do with Saturn. They already had plenty of brands at that point.

Saturn has some really solid products now. I'm most impressed by the Sky and the Outlook. I'm not at all impressed by the COTY (which I spent quite a bit of time checking out yesterday). Don't get me wrong, the Aura is a great car, but it does nothing particularly impressive to set it apart from the competition. I believe that Saturn's new (mostly) impressive products should have gone to other existing more "stronger" brands like Chevy or Pontiac. I don't see a point to this brand at all. If you're all about sales numbers (quantity), maybe it makes sense, but to me it doesn't. I'm going to withdraw from this thread now as I'm sure that (as in the past), people are going to jump at me and I hate arguing forever.

I think you're on the money. It would be interesting to know why Saturn customers are customers; e.g. product or something else. How many more of the vehicles would sell if they had more dealers? I have to believe they lose tons of sales because people don't want to drive long distances for service or even to look at the offerings. What does GM gain by having Saturn that wouldn't be more than offset by having the Saturn products sold by Chevy, Pontiac or Buick. Surely GM has done an analysis of all these things. Killing the brand would involve some expense in compensating the dealers, but this is a one-time cost that, I'd think, would be far more than made up by more sales over a few years.

[likearock00]

Originally Posted by bcjohnso99

Sky, Aura, Outlook, Astra - names Saturn did not have before...

If other brands want to follow in Saturn's footsteps, does that mean they should drop almost all of their nameplates and start fresh like Saturn did?

No more Impala, Malibu, Camaro, Monte Carlo, Silverado, Tahoe, etc ???

I think Chevrolet's slow and stready evolution is just fine. Pontiac desparately needs new and competitive products but their great names are pretty much gone already in favour of the G* naming scheme.

All this to say that Saturn's revitalization is great but it does not apply to other brands.

Um, no. I meant that Saturn went from crap to extremely competitive in 2 yrs. Chevy just rebuilt the full size SUV's, a totally new truck, a new Malibu, and a Camaro and Impala a short time time away. They were pretty much average vehicles and suddenly they have revitalized themselves. Product quality and appeal has skyrocketed. They will be there soon!

[Lichtronamo]

I saw an Outlook yesterday at the carwash. It was a really nice looking vehicle. It was especally nice compared to the Mountainer right behind it. Why anyone would buy an Explorer over one of these new GM crossovers is beyond me.

[ionlybuyGM]

I have to admit Saturn has been changed around the last 2 yrs but where and when will they do it for Pontiac and Buick??Buick and Pontiac are 2 of the oldest brands GM has and theyre damaged from poor design and advertising!!i see a lot of Chevy,Saturn,Hummer,Saab,etc commercials but nothing for Pontiac????WTF GM give something to the brand to advertise it more or youll keep getting the same results year after year like you have been!!ADVERTISE PONTIAC AND BUICK!!and stop making these horribly performed vehicles and youll get more sales!!thats why Chevy is one of the top selling vehicles in NA!!

[lkimura]

OK guitaklix, I see your point. You are absolutely right, the general perception of Saturn is that of a builder of appliance car, or cars for people who aren't intrested in cars. In addition, the brand did seem to be secondary in importance to other GM brands (in fact, Saturn is not part of GM, its a subsidiary). So, what Saturn needs to do is find its niche in the market.

Market perception is evolutionary. Toyota used to be thought of as cars made out of old US beer cans. It took them many years, but that perception has changed to one of quality. I think the same applies to Saturn. Right now the perception could be one of a fringe builder, but they are, in my opinion, doing the only thing they can to become a top tier manufacture, and that is build cars that are desirable and well engineered. Its going to take time, but if they keep offering cars like they have in the showroom now, this perception will change.

I think in the next year Saturn cars will become even more desirable when the Vue and Aura will be offered with the GM two-mode hybrid system, and also Saturn to offer fun cars from Europe like the Opel Astra and perhaps the Opel Corsa. I think this may be the part of the market Saturn might be after, it is the buyer who wants something a little different, perhaps with a European flavor, as opposed to the standard American or Asian vehicle.

In reply to Pontiac-Custom-S, yes the Sky's base in $5K higher than the Solstice, but it has more standard equipment. If you buy the Solstice with the same equipment, the price is about the same.

[ciciusss]

Originally Posted by grumbles

Your point was that they went from crap to average or above average. Their product line, as of today, is still nothing spectacular, and is actually quite small compared to other major nameplates. It's great to see Saturn is doing well, but they certainly aren't leading the industry by any measure.

Many are saying Saturn is one of the hottest and most desireable brands on the market. Says who? Saturn is more of a niche brand to me, like guitarlix stated earlier.

Of course, this comment is coming from someone who believes his Toyota Camry SE is a sports sedan . Grumbles, is your only purpose for coming to GMI to be contrarian and essentially a naysayer about GM products? You rarely say anything good, and when you do it is always followed with a but or however.

I'll let you in on something. The product line that the Toyota brand has is none to spectacular either. Most in the industry have written that Toyotas tend to be bland from a design and driving perspective. Toyota's calling card is it has a perception of having quality and reliability that is better than most other brands. It is the "safe" choice for those who want to go comfortably and reliably from point A to B. I have said on a number of occassions that the Camry, for example, is a very good car. It has a nice, quiet comfortable ride. The fuel economy is good whether you are talking about the I4 or V6 engines. And speaking of the engines, they are outstanding. But, is the Camry head and shoulders above other cars in this category? The short answer is no.

[bone]

GM has made a huge mistake in deciding to get out of the Van market. The Acadia/Outlook are good vehicles,however,they may be too heavy and too expensive. Chrysler made the right decision in re-engineering and re-styling their vans. They will trash the GM crossovers in sales. Most soccer mums want sliding side doors and Honda learned this when re-styling the Oddessy. The rest of the Saturns make much more sense to me.

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by saturnsteve

Yeah, now if we could just sell an Outlook here. We have not moved one yet. There are 8 of them sitting on my lot.

As I said some time ago, when I first input the prices into my database, the price is too high, probably by about two grand. Just a day or two ago I asked over at saturnfans whether anyone was actually buying Outlooks, or just talking about them. In contrast to the Aura board last fall, there are few if any owner reports.

Yet, contradicting myself, I now think the Enclave is about right despite being priced a bit higher after adjusting for feature differences. Wrote about the "Enclave pricing surprise" here:

http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=6

Matter of expectations? I expected the Buick to be higher, so I'm surprised it's not. But it's still prices fairly high. Buzz is so much stronger for the Enclave than the others, though, that it'll have an easier time commanding the same prices.

Enclave base prices now on my site, to enable partial comparisons. Look under "2007 Buick."

"Two years ago" is also cutting it a bit close. It was precisely at the 2005 Detroit show, where the Sky and Aura concept were shown, that those paying attention realized Saturn had a strong future. After the show I wrote that the biggest news was the future of Saturn.

Finally, on the OP, it has been a quick revitalization. But Nissan replaced an even larger number of vehicles from 2002 to 2004, that may be the most impressive line update in recent history.

Nadepalma: I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Saturn has a winning formula worthy of being applied to other brands. Need to see some impressive sales numbers first.

[plane]

As someone who owns 3 Saturns, let me answer that.
When I purchased my first Saturn - 2002 SL for a daily driver, the quality, dent-resistant panels, and legendary customer service won me over and have not disappointed me today. My SL 6 years later is tight, corners well and tops 40 mpg on the highway and runs as smoothly today as when it was brand new. So we thought we'd try our luck with a '93 SL2. Not one single problem yet. None. NADA. For a vehicle that's 13 years old, what more could you ask?

A few weeks ago, we purchased a Vue Greenline and Saturn has done nothing but continue to improve. Look for a detailed review coming soon.

nsap is right on target.

Those who revel in the thought of Saturn as solely a niche brand are quickly becoming sadly disappointed.

Aura. Outlook. Sky. Vue. And soon the Astra. Saturn is the real deal.

[Havasavana]

Originally Posted by plane

As someone who owns 3 Saturns, let me answer that.
When I purchased my first Saturn - 2002 SL for a daily driver, the quality, dent-resistant panels, and legendary customer service won me over and have not disappointed me today. My SL 6 years later is tight, corners well and tops 40 mpg on the highway and runs as smoothly today as when it was brand new.

A few weeks ago, we purchased a Vue Greenline and Saturn has done nothing but continue to improve. Look for a detailed review coming soon.

nsap is right on target.

Those who revel in the thought of Saturn as solely a niche brand are quickly becoming sadly disappointed.

Aura. Outlook. Sky. Vue. And soon the Astra. Saturn is the real deal.

Would you have bought the cars if they were offered as another GM brand?

[plane]

Originally Posted by Havasavana

Would you have bought the cars if they were offered as another GM brand?

Quite honestly, at the time, no other GM brand had the reputation for stellar quality and customer service that Saturn had. When the salesperson stepped on the polymer panel, showed us the great gas mileage (we had an 80 mile per day commute), and the 5-star safety, we were hooked.

After seeing how really great the Saturn product is and the customer service continues to be, I'm glad we made the decision to buy Saturn.

[guitarlix]

Originally Posted by plane

Those who revel in the thought of Saturn as solely a niche brand are quickly becoming sadly disappointed.

Plane, I don't "revel" in the thought of Saturn being a niche brand. It's just what I believe it is and I feel that GM's resources could be better allocated.

Saturn isn't the only brand I have an issue with. If people hear what I have to say about GMC, they'd probably run me off this forum permanently.